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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Broken Cable, Stuck keel?

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BarryCooper
1st Mate

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USA
30 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/15/2006 : 20:13:13

I am the new sailor who purchased the Catalina 25 for $1000 and am restoring it. The cable to my swing keel is broken. With the help of a friend, I passed a long rope underneath the boat and drug the rope on the bottom of the boat its entire length. Guess what? No keel. Is it missing or can they get stuck in the up position with a broken cable?

Edited by - on

ct95949
Captain

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Aruba
300 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2006 : 20:49:18

Hi Barry
I don't think there is any way for that heavy keel to be stuck in the up position with a broken cable.If you kept the line snug while you pulled it under the boat you would have come in contact with the keel weather it was up or down.Did you drag it from bow to stern?If the keel is stuck up some how the line may have slid under the keel going from stern to bow.Most likely it's gone.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2006 : 20:53:03

Is the boat sitting 'on it's marks' (even with it's waterline)? Without a keel it will be riding very high and be very tender (tippy).

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2006 : 21:14:34

Barry, I think you should bite the financial bullet and have the boat hauled out of the water. It will be easier to repair anything that's wrong with the boat sitting on land. If you have a broken cable, you're going to have to haul the boat anyhow, unless you're a scuba diver.

Brooke

Edited by - on

BarryCooper
1st Mate

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USA
30 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2006 : 21:30:00

Brooke, I found a trailer on loan. The keel not being down assures me an easy extract from the water. I am just worried that when I get the boat out, the keel will be missing. I was hoping somebody could explain how a keel could be stuck in the up position but so far, it appears I have no keel...huge problem. Barry

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2006 : 21:41:24

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by BarryCooper
 I am just worried that when I get the boat out, the keel will be missing...so far, it appears I have no keel...huge problem.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Well, if the keel is indeed missing, you're part way into a wing keel conversion.

Does the seller have any information concerning the keel?

Edited by - on

BarryCooper
1st Mate

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USA
30 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2006 : 22:10:46

dlucier, I did the "rope trick" today. I will contact the previous owner tomorrow and ask about the keel. How much does a wing keel conversion cost?

Edited by - on

Greg S
Deckhand

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14 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2006 : 22:20:36

Barry, I checked on one about a year ago. It was about two grang plus
shipping and handling.
Greg

Edited by - on

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2006 : 23:28:26

A while back a fellow lost his keel in Great South Bay while sailing. The four bolts at the hinge end of the keel let go and the keel anchored him to the bay bottom ( the cable didn't break ). I think the keel is still out there.

Val on the hard DAGNABIT # 3936 Patchogue, N.Y.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2006 : 23:34:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by BarryCooper
 How much does a wing keel conversion cost?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Probably in the vicinity of $4,000.00, maybe more.

With your boat needing sails, outboard, a rudder, boom, rigging, stern pulpit, and now maybe a keel, you are looking at a fairly large chunk of change (8 or 9 grand) needed to get this boat back in the water. Hmmmm?

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2006 : 23:46:12

Or you could part it out on ebay, make money and buy a better boat.

Edited by - on

atgep
Master Marine Consultant

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1009 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2006 : 09:55:08

Would a 25 stay upright if it had no keel?

Edited by - on

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2006 : 11:11:34

Barry, if you dredged your rope from bow to stern you would have encountered the keel just past where the mast sits on the hull. coming from stern to bow the keel, in the up position, is about a foot forward of the midship winch. In the down position you would encounter the keel astern of the middle window. These positions are as seen looking at the hull from a full side view.

If the cable is broken it is imposible to have the keel held up
in the retracted position. E X C E P T if you happened to have
bought the swinger that I once saw in which someone fiberglassed
the keel into the hull joint and was using the boat as a motor
launch. Other than that your keel is either down or gone.

Val on the hard DAGNABIT # 3936 Patchogue, N.Y.

Edited by - on

BarryCooper
1st Mate

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USA
30 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2006 : 20:20:51

dlucier, I checked today at Catalina Direct. Wing keel retro conversion $1950. I already bought a sail, rudder and boom for $450. I spent $508 for the parts and traded $2700 labor to have custom marine leather and marine burber carpet. The $1000 my wife paid for the boat was all trade. We have a small limousine company in E. Texas and trade limo service for a lot of goodies. $800 tops for a motor, $2000 tops for a keel puts me in the boat $3800 cash. Judging from my past trading skills and bargain hunting skills, I will probable get the motor for $500 and the keel for $1000. This would put me in the boat at $2500. So between $2500 and $3800 I have a nearly new Catalina 25. This boat is in near perfect shape. I am not an experienced sailor like you but can teach you something about trading and bargain shopping. Smiles, Smiles, Smiles. I did find today THE KEEL IS MISSING. Question: With the keel gone, can I safely use the Catalina on a lake as a motor boat until I find a deal on a keel? While tied to a dock, the boat seems very stable. Tinob, Thanks for your confidence. You are correct. Keel has to be down or it is gone.

Edited by - on

BarryCooper
1st Mate

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USA
30 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2006 : 20:59:54

I do not like telling people I have a limo company because they usually think I am rich. Guess what? Limos have payments, insurance ect. I think I make more money trading with it then I do cash. Again my question to all: Can I safely motor the boat around the lake without the keel?

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2006 : 21:11:20

Barry,

Since you are obviously a resourceful and thrifty kind of guy, you might consider looking around for a used Catalina 25 replacement swing keel. I'm guessing the cost would be pretty much what it takes to get it from where you find it to where you want it, plus maybe a token amount as a jesture towards its scrap value. If the attachments under the boat are damaged or missing, they can very likely be repaired inexpensively.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

BarryCooper
1st Mate

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USA
30 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2006 : 21:17:33

Thanks Leon. That is actually what I want to do...Motor the boat around the lake until I find a swing keel. I got the rudder, boom and sail shipped to me through my sister's trucking company at no charge. Maybe if I find a swing keel, I can get my sister to ship the 1500lb piece of metal to me at no charge. It is funny you mentioned scrap metal, this is the story of what happened to my missing keel. Regards, Barry

Edited by - on

atgep
Master Marine Consultant

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1009 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2006 : 21:43:41

Perhaps someone smarter than me can tell me how the boat would stay upright if the keel was gone. The bottom is a round tub. I would not even consider moving the boat if the keel was gone. Is the boat floating anywhere near the bootstripe? If it was 1500lbs light, I would expect it to be floating 5 or more inches higher than "normal"

If you have good horse trading skills, a wing retro would pay you back the most when it comes time to re-sell. Not to mention it eliminates the maintenance.

Tom.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2006 : 23:13:59

Darwin award anyone?

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2006 : 09:47:53

Tom

Basic foil theory, principles of buoyancy, and Bernoulli’s principle aside the keel acts as a counterbalance against the force of the wind pushing against the sail. (It does a lot more, but the essentially duties of the keel are just that)The boat might rock more but it will still stay upright at the dock because there aren’t any major forces against it. If you think about it, how big are the keels on powerboats? Probably not much larger than what is left when you put our boat in the water without a keel.

It may or may not sit higher too. It depends on where the crap is distributed and how much crap there is. And even if it were to sit higher, it would only be a few inches. I wouldn’t expect a individual, such as Barry, with little sailing experience to know if it is sitting higher or not. He’s only been in the game a few weeks.

Barry,

It is very possible that this keel is still in tact and attached. Keep in mind that in a fully lowered state it is still angled backward. My bet is that the rope slipped all the way back.
I don’t think two guys and a rope are probably not going to be able to hoist it, even if it’s in the water. If the keel isn’t there, I would think water would be finding its way into the boat through the bolts holding it on. Unless it was intentionally removed, the only other way for the keel not to be there would inflict some nice sized damage to the keel trunk and the bolt attachment points.

I am going to approach this at a really base level here, please don’t be insulted.
Are you able to get into the water? I recall you being in Texas. You should see a keel much like that shown on our brochures and manuals page. There is also one other possibility – this was already wing retrofitted. If that is the case, they might have left the winch in the stairwell for the heck of it. You should be able to discern that keel shape from Frank Hoppers tech tip on replacement.

If the keel is in the up position and stuck, which isn’t really possible unless its glassed in, or you are confusing the keel cable with who knows what you will see about 12 inches of a keel running the length of the boat.

Duane

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2006 : 10:54:40

Without a keel to provide lateral resistance, directional stability, and ballast, manuevering the boat under power may be tricky.

One day at my marina, a new fellow sailor launched his MacGregor water ballasted boat and, while motoring to his slip, he encountered a lot of steering difficulties. As some us ran around trying to fend off for him, a fellow MacGregor WB sailor commented that without the ballast tanks filled and the board down, steering this boat was like trying to steer a beach ball.

Edited by - on

BarryCooper
1st Mate

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USA
30 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2006 : 13:05:49

Duane, The keel is definetly gone. Story goes it was sold for scrap. No leaks at all. I've read all the post and still am not sure if the boat is safe to motor around with a 9.9 hp.
Regards,
Barry

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2006 : 13:22:20

no
Please film it if you try, (from shore).
A 25 weighs around 4800lbs, subtract the 1500lbs from the keel and you have 3300lbs. The boat sits about 20"s in the water at the deepest point, much less in the stern. The boat is about 72"s tall, leaving 52"s abouve the water line. Even though the majority of the interior is quite low, (settees and such) the majority of the weight has to be above the waterline.
Call this number and ask for Frank, ask him.
1-818-884-7700

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 01/17/2006 13:37:05

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2006 : 13:55:41

Well if the boat is in the water now and people have been crawling all over it without capsizing it, then it must have some inherent stability left.

Edited by - on

BarryCooper
1st Mate

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USA
30 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2006 : 14:07:58

Fhopper, After being bounced around for 15 minutes and given the wrong number twice, the operator told me Frank does not answer tech questions. I was then tranferred to somebody who does and was told I needed customer service. Dialed them and got answering machine. The norm for todays businesses. Thanks for the lead though.
Barry

Edited by - on

BarryCooper
1st Mate

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USA
30 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2006 : 14:11:52

Dlucier, I agree. I owned a 25 cabin cruiser prior to this C-25 and I cannot tell the difference climbing in and out and around either boat. The C-25 feels very stable. Still unsure though. Barry

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