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Attn: Chesapeake Bay Sailors, sail size ?

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2006 : 13:50:49

Let me give some suggestions for those who are thinking about buying a new sail. I think you can trust a sailmaker with a good name and reputation much more than a discount sailmaker. You <u>can</u> get a pretty good sail from a discount sailmaker, but, if you don't specify exactly what you want from a discount sailmaker, he'll send you whatever he has lying around. He thinks all you want is something cheap, and that's what he's liable to send you...something cheap. I specified exactly what I wanted in a mainsail and got a very good one from a discounter, but was less specific about my jib, and didn't like it as much. It's important to a name brand sailmaker that you be happy with his product, and will usually give good advice. He doesn't want you bad-mouthing his product.

I tell a sailmaker where and how I will use the boat, and what options I want (type of luff attachment (i.e., roller furling or hanked-on), reef points, flattening reef, cunningham, sail windows, telltale windows, sail numbers, type of battens, type of foot (i.e., shelf foot, attached foot, loose-foot), leech lines, type and size of sail slides, etc.,) and ask him to give me his recommendations on such things as the type and weight of sailcloth, as well as anything I'm unsure about. I ask him to tell me the name of the manufacturer of the sailcloth. Better sailmakers will use good quality sailcloth. I also ask his thinking about any new design features that I've read or heard about. I trust a name-brand sailmaker's judgment with regard to the cut of the sails. If I had an unlimited budget, I'd order a set of sails cut specifically for each location (e.g., SF Bay vs. Ches.) where I might sail, but, since my budget is limited, I think a well-made set of sails with a good, all-purpose shape, is as good as I'll ever need, and, unless you pay extra for custom sails, that's what you'll get. You can use the sail trimming devices on the boat to give the sails a flat or full shape. If racing is important to you, tell the sailmaker, and a good one will make sure the sails have a racing cut.

Before you talk to the sailmaker, think about the options you want, and what you're going to tell him. He doesn't expect you to know everything about sails, but if he senses that you've thought about what you want, and that you understand basic principles, he'll give you better, more detailed information. Don't be afraid to ask him to explain how any of the various sail trimming options can help you.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 02/08/2006 14:00:51

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 02/09/2006 : 15:34:55

With respect to not needing a foam luff on a 135% headsail, here's a portion of an article from sailnet explaining the purpose of the foam:

"Having a foam luff on your roller-furling headsail can make all the difference in the shape of the sail once it becomes partially rolled up. Having a foam-filled luff goes a long way toward creating a decent sail shape once the sail is reefed. The luff pad is usually a sewn-in piece of closed-cell foam that runs the length of the luff of the sail, tapering toward the head and tack, with its widest portion halfway up the luff. As you take the first turn on the roller furler, the foam pad rolls up and bulks in the middle of the forestay. With each successive turn, the added bulk removes shape from the sail, thereby flattening it, or at least stopping it from getting full. "

The full article is here: http://www.sailnet.com/collections/articles/index.cfm?articleid=hancoc0008

Justin, when Jim Scott made my 135% sail, he strongly urged me to get the foam for exactly the reasons quoted above. It makes absolutely no difference what size the sail is -- as soon as you start to furl it, you change the curve of the sail. When you reef, you want to flatten the sail, which helps depower it.

Brooke

Edited by - Brooke Willson on 02/09/2006 15:37:44

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/09/2006 : 17:36:36

Brooke, the argument against it comes from what it does to laminar flow and the attach point aft of the forestay. I am certain Jim Scott was telling you what he believed was right for you based on what you had asked for. IMHO articles about 40 ft boats and their sail trim mean nothing, we sail rigs that are closer to daysailers in the considerations we need to attend to.
The foam hurts the sail's performance when you are not furled per Gary Swensen, I want maximum performance then. Honestly, I suspect that a foil the size of a CDI or a big round one like the Schaefer SnapFurl probably make it moot, but if a guy had a nice Harken it probably would be a mistake in terms of performance. The draft of a 150 is deeper than that of a 135 so there is more pocket to absorb on a 150, I think foam is a good idea there regardless, it is the 135 that is questionable, think about the big wad of foam that immediately increases the cross-section of your foil, how are you going to point like that? It, as always, boils down to who you are, where you sail, and how you sail. If a person sheets out in a gust then who cares, if a person pinches and feathers then it matters a lot. Something bad has to happen to me before I sheet out.

I would like to say something here; Brooke and I often do things differently. For the record I would be thrilled to someday be able to sail with him, after years of reading his posts I know he is a very accomplished sailor and has his act very together. I think one of the great strengths of this forum is to see different conclusions voiced on topics so people can see that there is seldom a pat answer. We are all captains, captains make decisions that others live with. Those decisions should be well considered and a broad spectrum of perspectives has to help. But in the end we make our own decision.
(God, do I ever shut up?)

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 02/09/2006 : 19:20:39

Frank, you are far too generous about my sailing abilities, and would have a very different opinion if you ever saw me in action. But thank you anyhow.

This foam luff thing isn't about my opinion. Sailmakers -- especially people like Jim and Andrew Scott, who crew for Dennis Connor and make sails for big, expensive, and famous boats and sailors as well as humble little boats like mine -- know something, perhaps more than bulk discounters. (Steve Milby, your post is wonderful.) The Offshore headsails Catalina Direct sells have foam luffs. The Ullman sails are offered with a foam luff option: "for frequent use when reefed, optimize the shape with a foam luff" (p. 4.13). Hmmm. Is there a pattern here?

Sailors who really want "maximum performance" don't have roller furlers: check out the really serious racing machines. A roller furler is about convenience, and even without the luff and with the sail fully deployed, the airflow is compromised by the furler hardware. So, if you have already compromised "maximum performance" by having a furler, why wouldn't you want to maximize the performance of the furler with a foam luff?

As a Chesapeake sailor who sails with a Scott 135% genoa with a foam luff, I can simply say that my sail is terrific and works well both fully deployed and well furled. Justin, I get no commission from the Scotts (or even a discount for my slip), but there's an advantage to being able to take the sail back to the Creator if you ever have a problem with it (any excuse to visit Annapolis is a good thing).

And that's the last I have to contribute to this thread (you may all break into riotous celebration at this point).

Brooke

Edited by - Brooke Willson on 02/10/2006 08:14:39

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 02/11/2006 : 20:58:26

Greetings...let me jump in here.

Had my genoa redone at Ullman in Havre de Grace.....Max Skelly is a standup guy. 410-939-9261

I highly recommend the foam luff. The 250 didn't have it, wish it had...the 42 has it, love it. The loss of efficiency when unfurled, if even measurable on a cruising Catalina, is more than made up for by the ability to have a halfway decent 100% jib to fight your way into a blustery choppy day on the Bay....my $.03

Understand you might want help going across the Bay? Give me a holler....

oscar*at*noln.com (replace *at* with @)

Oscar C-42 #76 Lady Kay (ex C250 WB #618)
Chesapeake/Fort Lauderdale

Edited by - Oscar on 02/11/2006 20:59:03

Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1913 Posts

Response Posted - 02/11/2006 : 22:27:23

I bought a 110 from Cruising Direct last year. Got the CD Nordac 7oz 4800 Dacron with UV leech and foot. I opted for the rope luff instead of the foam. The people at CD were touting the rope luff in stead of foam, so I went with it. Total cost $889. Sail arrived with all North Sails paper work and a CD emblem on the sail. So far I have been very pleased.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/12/2006 : 20:42:06

Over the weekend, I called a major local loft (Doyle) to inquire about furling headsails, specifically the foam/rope option, and the rep told me that they recommend not getting a foam/rope luff unless I would be taking my boat offshore (read bluewater) and they make this recommendation without regard to boat size. He said that the foam luff on an unfurled genoa will slow the boat down a wee bit (measured in 1/10ths of a knot) and will affect pointing ability slightly, but with the prevailing winds in this area (Great Lakes), the foam luff option is just not needed.

I told him I found it rather interesting that a loft(him) was disuading customers from spending money on the foam luff option, and he said that they just want to do what's best for the customer and their boats, but if a customer really wanted it, they would gladly put one on.

I was leaning towards a foam luff on my next headsail, but after this conversation, I'm back on the fence (with a slight lean to going sans foam/rope luff).

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/12/2006 : 21:52:17

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Justin
Admiral

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502 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2006 : 07:28:37

Thanks for sharing Don. That just helped reassure me that going with out the luff will be fine. In the next couple weeks I plan to order a Cruising Direct 135%.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2006 : 09:42:47

There's a lot about sailing that's subject to personal opinion. The professionals who have been talking to Don appear to have different opinions from the ones who have been talking to Brooke. If there was a big performance difference between roller furling genoas with and without foam luffs, you could sail two identical boats side-by-side, one with a foam luff and one without, and you could measure the difference in speed and pointing ability. With solid proof like that, the pros would all agree on which was better. The fact that the pros disagree tells you that any difference in performance is so slight that it can't be measured reliably. If the difference is that slight, then, in the real world that we amateurs live in, it really doesn't make much difference to us either. If you buy either type of sail from a good sailmaker, you'll probably be happy with it, and, if you sail alongside another boat with the other type of sail, you'll probably be reasonably competitive with it.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2006 : 12:11:41

Steve,

I agree with your assessment that either type of headsail will perform about the same in our world, and the loft I talked to said pretty much the same thing with almost negligible performance differences between the two. Their main point against foam luffs for anything other than bluewater boats was not performance related, but rather from a cost benefit perspective as it relates to <i>my </i>sailing venue and the type of sailing I do.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2006 : 12:17:58

And please recall another point, you do not have to use Sunbrella for the UV shade, I am using UV resistant dacron which makes a much cleaner leech and foot. I will need to replace it a little sooner but it will still last for years. By the time it need replacing the sail will need maintenance anyway.

Edited by - on

Justin
Admiral

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502 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2006 : 12:59:25

I just ordered my Cruising Direct 135% genoa this morning. $689 shipped for a North Sail isn't bad I'd say. I should be getting it next week.

It will be 4 weeks this weekend since I last saw my boat. Hard to believe my little adventure of a first sail was almost a month ago. I can't wait to sail her across the bay the end of next month. I hope to make it out this weekend to install the new outboard bracket and other stuff I have ready. Thanks again for all the info you all have provided.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2006 : 14:51:56

I think this discusion has been very productive. A lot of air has been cleared. You are getting a nice sail a a good price and many of us who would not have considered them before will from now on. Thanks

Edited by - on

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