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existentialsailor
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1180 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/15/2006 : 08:39:05

Having no racing experience, I don't understand the advantage of hanked on sails over the roller furling set up.

Would someone give me the basic explanation?

Thanks.

Rick

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/15/2006 : 11:24:04

Real racers want a perfect interface between the leading edge of the sail and the airflow, that allows laminar flow at an early attach point, thereby reducing turbulation which robs the sail shape of the lifting forces which provide the driving force. Serious racers use a fine foil on the forestay (Schaefer and Harken make these) so the interface is as perfect as possible, hanks begause of their points of contact and lack of contact in between are not as good as a fine foil and are especially bad if the halyard is loose and the luff is scallopped. Harken furlers have a fine foil. All other furlers have foils but their design criteria is to support a furled sail rather than a fine luff/air interface so they creat disturbed air. A Capri should only consider a Harken furler.

So to sum up; a well raised hank on sail is a cleaner leading edge than most roller furling foils. Harken is the exception to this rule. Serious racers are not satisfied with even a well hoisted hanked on sail so they use specialized headstay racing foils. The disadvantage to the racing foil is that there is nothing to keep the sail on your deck when you drop the sail so you pretty much must have crew to use them.

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 02/15/2006 11:49:27

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5902 Posts

Response Posted - 02/15/2006 : 11:40:28

In making a hanked-on jib, the sailmaker only has one consideration: What is the ideal shape for the sail, i.e., What shape will give the sail the most power, and enable the boat to sail the closest to windward, over the widest range of windspeeds? In making a roller-furling jib, the sailmaker not only has to think about what is the best sail shape to power the boat, but he also has to consider how to make the sail roll up into a smooth, compact roll, and maintain a decent shape after doing so.

Sails are cut and stitched together in a way so that they form a pocket in the center. Sails have more cloth in the center than around their outer perimeter. I believe roller-furling jibs are usually cut so that they form a shallower pocket than hanked-on jibs, because a deep-pocketed jib won't roll up as well.

Also, a hanked-on sail that is made for racing has what is called a "deck-sweeping" foot. The foot of the jib comes almost all the way down to the boat's sheer line. On a roller-furling jib, the foot of the jib is cut increasingly higher as it proceeds aft. If you don't cut it that way, then when you roll up the jib, the roll will be fatter at the bottom than at the top.

Because of those differences, the hanked-on jib has a little more sail area and slightly better shape than the furled-on jib.

Also, nothing interferes with the wind as it flows over the leading edge (the luff) of a hanked-on jib. When a roller-furling jib is partially furled, the roll disturbs the wind that flows across the leeward side of the jib. It creates a little turbulence at the leading edge of the sail, and that turbulence slightly decreases the power that can be generated by the leeward side of the jib.

I've heard some racers are using roller furlers now, but I suspect those are mostly boats that are designed for specific purposes, such as short-handed, long-distance racing, where you accept the compromised sail efficiency in exchange for convenience.

Roller furlers are great for short-handed cruising sailors, because when a storm pops up, you can tuck a reef in the mainsail and roll up a little of the jib, and you're all set. You don't have to release the jib halyard, run to the wet foredeck, pull down the big jib, unhank it, stuff the wet sail down the hatch, hank on the smaller jib, and run the jibsheets aft, and raise the jib halyard, all while the boat is crashing through choppy waves and you're hanging on and scared half to death.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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6855 Posts

Response Posted - 02/15/2006 : 11:46:56

Hard core racers want neither, they use what is called of a tuff luff, or a luff track system. http://www.tuffluff.com/

This allows zero gap between the forstay and sail, and much like a hank on, the sail is designed for one use. I.E. good in many, great in none is what people say about the furler systems.

It also allows for quick sail changes without having to go without a headsail.
dw

Edited by - Champipple on 02/15/2006 15:03:09

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/15/2006 : 11:59:25

That was fun, huh guys.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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6855 Posts

Response Posted - 02/15/2006 : 15:04:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 That was fun, huh guys.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

until I edit my idiocy, afterwhich nobody knows what your referring to.

Edited by - on

Ericson33
Admiral

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USA
892 Posts

Response Posted - 02/15/2006 : 15:43:07

I tend to have different thoughts on all three, Lets start with the hanks.

A. A hanked on sail is one of the faster sail to take down, and the system to use if you are serious about racing. If you are at the windward mark the chute can be set, and the genoa can be taken down very fast, also the hanks are attached to the forstay, so the sail can be flaked right at the fordeck. There are two down sides to a hanked on sail, One is the luff of the sail doesn't come in direct contact with the forstay, If the Halyard tension is not correct for the wind the sails shape at the luff will scallop. Sometimes I think that this is OK because it tells you to harden the halyard or if vertical lines are seen let it out.
Number two is for sail changes, Most Luff systems and Harkens Furlers allow for two sails to be raised, Or whats called a peel. If you are using hanks the sail has to be dropped and then the other can be raised.

Tuff Luff - This system has the better entry point for sail shape at the luff, You can also peel the head sails if the wind changes. The drawback of this system is that when coming into the leeward mark you have to prefeed the luff, If its a newer sail it tends to crinkle at the luff causing a jam. Yes it true that you have to flake the sail on deck, and run a bungee on top of the forsail. This is sometimes a real PITA, and you don't want the extra weight forward.

Furler - I do own the Harken Furler, I like the fact that you can furl the sail when the wind pickes up with out changing the sail (this is why its not legal to use in the Capri 25 class). I used my furler one time, I hated it, for one the halyard swivel at the top of the forstay will not allow a full hoist. most of the time I am finding the dam thing jambed on the spinnaker block. Next is the Drum, for the sail to roll up like stated before, the sail has to be cut so the sail will not roll up over the drum, and lay flat against the forstay, Or extrusion. Another drawback is the shape of the extrusion it self, Mine is made of aluminum so the forstay bend to leeward will not get the true shape for the cut of the luff. Also the mast rake for and aft is effected.

Furlers are used in racing quite a bit, (bigger boats) most of them are higher dollar units that recess into the deck,(Code Zero) or are set forward to lower the foot of the sail. Remember that the higher the foot is off of the deck the more the boat will heal over. You can use your furler in racing, just not in the One design Capri 25 Class, I doubt you will be taking the boat to sail OD, and if there is 4 boats of the same class you can race OD, Granted that the NOR state this.

All of this being said, I don't use my furler for racing, I have removed the drum and I want to remove the whole unit at some point. I have looked into the Tuff-Luff harken Carbo Foil, and other units. From a racing point of veiw I personally think that hanks are the fastest. Take a look at the bigger One Design classes around our boat size and see what they use, J24, J22 are mostly hanked on sails. most of these racers are all about extra weight, A good friend of mine raced on a J105, and the skipper made him leave his sunscreen on the dock. If you are interested in racing this season, talk to the local YC or sailing club, find out what the rules are for your class, and what they expect out of you. Best advice would to be to show up on the docks and ask if some one can take you out to race. There is nothing like riding on Other peoples boats, I am saying this because the owners are footing the bill and it doesn't cost you much, a couple of hours of your time and hard work. In the end you will be a better skipper at the helm being able to watch and learn.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5902 Posts

Response Posted - 02/15/2006 : 20:27:04

I agree with much of what C.S. says, and especially with his observation that each of the systems has its advantages and disadvantages.

One of the advantages of a headfoil system, like the tuff luff, is that you can change headsails quickly while underway. You really can't do that with a hanked-on jib. But, if you don't need to change headsails while underway, that isn't a very important feature to you.

It's said that one of the disadvantages of a hanked-on jib is that the luff of the sail doesn't come in direct contact with the forstay, and, if the halyard tension is not correct for the wind, the luff of the sail will scallop. While that's true, I don't consider that a disadvantage. It just means that you have to adjust the halyard tension correctly for the amount of wind. In strong winds, you apply more halyard tension, and you ease the halyard tension in lighter winds, or when sailing off the wind. When sailing downwind or in light air, I ease the halyard tension until the luff of the jib starts to scallop, and then restore just enough tension to make the scallops smooth out. That gives the jib a very full, powerful shape.

What I'm trying to say is that it seems to me that a hanked-on jib can be shaped more than a headfoil jib. On boats that I've sailed with headfoils, I haven't felt that I could adjust the jib shape over such a wide range. The headfoil doesn't seem to let the jib belly out as much as a hanked-on jib when sailing downwind.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 02/15/2006 : 21:03:40

"The headfoil doesn't seem to let the jib belly out as much as a hanked-on jib when sailing downwind"
Steve - I think this depends on the way that the jib is cut and how much forestay sag that your sailmaker wants you to carry. My guy (a hardcore racer and a gold medalist in J24's at the Pan-Am games) tells me to have at least 10" of sag. I have never seemd to have a problem shaping the genoa with my headfoil, and when poled-out downwind it is very powerful - in fact I have held off J-22's running chutes! (at least until we turned to weather...

)
Derek
P.S. However, I never could catch that rocket ship of Gary Savage

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2006 : 05:35:57

I guess it's (tuff luff) a little different on different boats. On the bigger boat, the foredeck guy brings the sail down and pre-feeds the jib about 3 feet off the deck. The sail goes through a "pre-feeder" and from there, it goes up without a guy in site.

dw

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2006 : 08:59:32

You're probably right, Derek. Now that I think of it, the other boats that I sailed probably didn't have as much headstay sag as I did on my boat (as a result of your recommendations).

Edited by - on

takokichi
Captain

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USA
321 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2006 : 10:35:39

One key thing that I haven't seen discussion of on this thread is end plate effect. An RF sail is going to have a foot well above the deck. This is going to all allow air to spill out from under the foot of the sail. A hanked-on sail is going to sweep the deck and prevent that spill. That spill is a real issue for performance. The spill under is going to equalize the pressure across the bottom of sail, effectively killing a lot of lift. It also creats serious drag which both slows the boat, and causes turbulence that will affect the laminar flow further up the sail than you'd think. For a discussion of this see: http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=27993&hl=deck+sweeper

Anyone using Harken Carbo furler? It looks like closest thing to the best of all worlds. Very aerodynamic foil and the drum splits if you want a deck sweeper.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2006 : 10:45:29

The handicap that a RF creates in reduced speed is why PHRF gives you an extra 12 seconds/mile if you have one (and normally that is not enough!)
Derek

Edited by - on

Ericson33
Admiral

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USA
892 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2006 : 12:05:33

I have the Harken Unit 00AL Furling System, harken does not make a furler yet that has the Carbo foil with a furler do they. Mine uses a aluminum extrusion that goes up the forstay, It also has the removable drum. I have removed the drum from our boat and just tack the sail to the forstay tack ring. I also have removed the halyard swivel thing it took a good 8" out of the luff of the sail. The higher I can get the sail in the air, and the lower I can get it on the deck of the boat the better sail shape I get. If anyone has a tuff-luff system that is 30' I will trade my furler. Personally I hate it.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2006 : 14:14:05

I am surprised you don't like the foil alone better; do you have a prefeeder? (I wonder if you even can have a prefeeder with the bare foil.) They make a world of difference. As for the furler itself, the 00 series

is the dumbed down version to compete with the price point competition. The Mark III has a swivel at the botton as well and it allows the draft to get reefed up first and helps keep the sail flat as it is reefed.

I loved the Mark III on my Merit.

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 02/16/2006 14:15:52

takokichi
Captain

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USA
321 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2006 : 14:19:54

Yep - Carbofoil furler is out and on the market. Thinking about adding on to the next boat. Either of the current front runners will require a furler upgrade.

Edited by - on

chriszzz
Deckhand

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17 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2006 : 10:00:20

Interesting.
So what are the rough price points? Can someone summarize?
maybe include some sail prices. furler $ + sail $ = $ total
Thanks

Edited by - chriszzz on 02/17/2006 10:01:17

Ericson33
Admiral

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USA
892 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2006 : 11:04:59

I have gone to APS, Harken, And Defender and I can NOT seem to find a CARBO FOIL that is with a FURLER. Frank what was the main difference between the 00AL, and the MKIII? I do like the fact that the furler drum can be removed, and you can just tack the sail to the deck for racing. Aerodynamics of the Aluminum Foil, and the ABS Plastic foil are worlds apart. The harken Foil is about 3/4" thick at the leading edge, While the Tuff Luff system is around 1/4". As you all know its all about how the wind comes across the forstay, and the air path towards the windward side of the sail, and the air flow towards the leeward side. I am not that good of sailor to really have the best out there, I mean we are talking maybe a couple of seconds per mile, and that's if the bottoms smooth, the foils are templated and fair, and I am having the best day in my life at the helm. That's where I can see having the hanks, the sail comes down faster, and the weight stays off of the bow.

I sometimes have to take a step back and think that I really just need to sail the boat and quit dumping money into her. The harken unit works fine for right now, no drum, and no swivel at the top, this allows me to have the full height racing sail. Also all of the sails I bought last season all have the max luff distance for the rig. Well between 30 and 31 ft. The 105% that I got for the boat was a blast to sail but at one point we really needed to twist her off to keep the boat flat and not sliding sideways. Thats where i have really been having a problem with the furler unit. If I use the halyard swivel it shortens the luff by around 8" In light air this was OK to have because we would not have the halyard tightened all the way, But in heavier air we really needed the extra distance to get the sails luff correctly set. The first time we had the boat out after I bought her we only had the old main, and the furling Genoa. The main sail was cleaned and was about a foot smaller than before we sent the sail in. Just a note to all of you the sail cost about 250.00 plus shipping to clean it, it would be better off if you all saved the money and put it back for a newer sail, Its not worth the money in my eyes. The Genoa for the boat that had been cut for the furler really is a nice sail, and a furler is a great product if it is set up correctly. When we put up the Genoa it got the boat going, but it seemed like there could be more power brought to the boat with the sail. It was not very responsive to trim, and it would not point at all with the fleet. I had already gotten a 140% and a new main for the boat in the winter of 2004, so the next time out on the boat we could really see a difference with the new sails.

Price Points in my mind are:
Furler $400-$700 the $400 is if you get a good deal on Ebay
Sails - If you already have a sail you can have it cut for the furler
Recut of Foot and Hanks to #5 tape = $200.00
If you need a new sail I would say under $1000.00. Just depends
you will need to spend a couple extra bucks $100-$200 on rigging IE Stantion blocks, and a Cam Cleat, Hardware, Bedding Material.

I am really thinking of getting rid of what I have so keep a look out on the Swap Meet, If I do sell it I will be buying a Harken Carbo Foil, or a Tuff Luff. I just spent 300.00 on changing three sails from hanks to #5 luff tape, and the best part will be that the Furler will come with a sail,and stantion blocks. The line was thrown out so it will have to be replaced.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2006 : 11:58:00

It is the lower swivel, On your boat the drum turns the sail tack and the luff tape at the same time, the entire leading edge of the sail gets furled together. On a Mark III the tack is connected to a swivel so when the drum turns it turns the luff tape in the foil only, the head and tack (both connected to their own swivels) resist the first few turns and the belly of the sail get rolled up a little first then the head and tack start to roll. That flattens the sail so the sail shape is as good as possible for a furled sail. I am a believer in a flatter sail on a furler so you can carry it unfurled longer and so the sail shape is better when it is furled. The 00 does have a nice foil section and I would think it would be a pretty nice thing to have as a luff foil. Tuff Luffs get brittle and break, there is an entire category of repair tapes just for their boo boos. That is one of the reasons Harken has entered the market after all these years, their Carbo technology should be a better product.
You did not answer about the prefeeder, do you have one? Life is much better with one.
This is the cheap Harken.

This is the nicer Schaefer.

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 02/17/2006 12:01:27

Ericson33
Admiral

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USA
892 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2006 : 13:38:57

Yes I do have a prefeeder, Its attached right atop of where the drum was located. It gives me about2 feet to the feeder, then into the foil. I think that the reason that we have a problem with the sail jambing in the prefeeder is that the sails are about brand new. They are all very stiff at the luff tape (Luff tape was repalced from hanks in June). I do like the fact that I could take the furler and the furling sail and have it to cruze around with, but all of the racing sails are right there and I really don't want anymore weight on the boat. Most of the racers take their sails and put them on the side of the dock before a race, I tend to keep mine on board, if the wind does pick up I will have to peel, and if it dies down I will have to change the sail. I have class sails + one exrta that I have for the boat 155, 140, 130, 105, main, and spinnaker. I just got the 155% before the racing season ended, I have not even had it up on the big stick yet. The 140, main, and spinnaker came in a Package deal, the 130% and the 105% were racing sails I had left over from the San Juan 24, The two boats are both Mast head rigs, and the San Juan I is 30 and the Capri 25 is 30.75 the J of the San Juan is 9.5 and the Capri 25 is 9.83 The weight of the San Juan is 3250 and the Capri is 2750, I had purchased the racing sails for the San Juan and had only used them twice, I do have allot of different sails to choose from, and I thought that spreading the manufactures out also would let me know who I wanted to make my Next Full Set of sails for the boat. 105 is Ullman, 130 is UK, 140 North, 155 Kerr. I have to say that the UK is really the nicest sail I own, but the spinnaker I have is a North Air X600, This spinnaker compaired to the others I have flown is hands down the best sail made. We were in under 4 knots of breeze, and at times there was nothing and the sail still stayed full. I really like the Kerr sail because if I have a question about the cut, trimming, I can just ask him after the race.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2006 : 15:04:15

"Tuff Luffs get brittle and break"
I guess that I've been lucky, Frank. I've had a TuffLuff now for 14 years and it's still doing fine!

Derek
P.S. How's the hand coming along?

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2006 : 16:55:34

Gentlemen play nice with their toys.
I think it is APS that is pushing a Japanese Teflon tape for Tuff Luff protection/repair, the 7.9 across from me uses aluminum tape. Lots of the damage comes from spinnaker poles being handled by crew who do not own the boats.

My hand is not doing great, I wish you and Judy would come and minister to me; I believe libation would be a good protocol.

Oh and hey,

means "approve", not "smug".

Edited by - on

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