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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Pop-top retrofit on '98 250wk

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Oldnewtimer
Deckhand

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Initially Posted - 02/17/2006 : 08:02:05

Good morning folks, I'm new to the board. I've never owned a boat before, though grew up around and in water and sailed and cruised with my dad when younger. I am a part-time single dad, with an 11-year old daughter, and I'm in the process of buying a C250wk. The boat I'm most interested in is a '98, and seems to be great in all respects except that she never had the pop-top. I'm 6'0" tall and the 5'5" headroom without the pop-top isn't going to work for me, I don't think.

Apparently the pop-top cover can be had from Catalina for $300, and the metal U-bar and bases for $99 (I assume shipping on top of that). I guess my question to the Forum is: what's involved in installing this? Has anybody else ever had to retrofit a pop-top? My inclination is to pay the boatyard to do this -- I'd hate to muck up my "new" boat before I even get it in the water and I don't (at this point) feel confident or competent to do things like afixing snaps to the deck or putting in the bases.

Also, what supports the pop-top cover BETWEEN the upraised companionway hatch/deck combo, and the metal U-bar to the rear? Pictures of the pop-top that I've seen on other 250s listed online seem to show some sort of structure there that supprts the canvas/vinyl and keeps it from sagging.

I'm figuring/budgeting on about 2-3 hours of boatyard labor to install this? Too much? Too little? That would put the cost of the retrofit around $650-750.

If anybody has any close-up pictures of (especially) the bases of the U-bar, showing how they are installed on the boat, that would help, too.

As all but the oldest of old-timers on this board have almost certainly felt and experienced, the incredible energy and responsiveness to be found here was a HUGE selling point for me when considering what kind of boat to get! I'll have to do my best to "pay it forward," but for now I'm on the low end of the learning curve....only one way to go from here! Anyway, thanks for all the help I've gotten in the last few weeks from peeking at the Forum, and thanks in advance for all the help I expect to receive in the future!

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 02/17/2006 : 09:40:39

Congrats on the new boat.... the all weather pop top enclusure is pretty simple with only two parts, the cover and a bow frame.

To retrofit, unless they exist, sockets for the bow frame will need fitted to the high density plastic frame bordering the companionway and snaps screwed around the perimter of the companionway. I'd agree with your estimate that no more than three hours should be needed and it would likley be 1-2.

The bow frame simple drops into the sockets to support the aft part with the pop top itself supporting the forward section. Some method of bow storage is needed as well and there are pics in archives giving examples of for that.

The all weather enclosure is a delightful feature of the 250.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 02/17/2006 09:42:48

Al
Captain

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Response Posted - 02/17/2006 : 11:45:23

Welcome to the forum...! Your daughter's lucky to have a dad to go sailing with around 'ol Cape Cod.

I guess I'm spoiled having the mild southern California weather to sail in--I've never used my cover, in fact, my boat's three years old and I still haven't even unwrapped it! (but I do want to keep it. Sorry!) I'm 5' 11" and the coolest it's been when spending the evening/sleeping over on the boat has been the lower 60s or maybe upper 50s, and I've never felt the need to give up the openness of just having the hatch propped up to gain extra warmth. (I guess rain would be a different issue...).

Anyway, I'm just suggesting that it might not be at the top of your list of things to do to the boat right away. You might want to sail a season with it first and then re-prioritize what projects you want to invest in it.

Then again, you know your local weather a lot better than I do...!

Edited by - on

coldducks
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Response Posted - 02/18/2006 : 06:21:37

hi and welcome,

congratulations on your new boat. are you sure that the support holes are not already there? i cant imagine that they are missing. the snaps maybe.
as far as what holds the pop top up and keeps it from sagging, is the companionway hatch in the upright position. so i would think that if you had the snaps installed, all you would need is the pop top itself and the u bar.
when we bought our 99wk new, i thought i would never use the pop top, now i cant imaging not having it. we spend every weekend aboard and it is great for overnighters and rainy days, no leaks at all. we are in boston harbor and share your weather conditions. i am sure someone will post a picture for you to see how it is installed.

Edited by - coldducks on 02/18/2006 06:27:51

Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 02/18/2006 : 07:27:38

If you didn't opt for the Poptop option when you ordered the boat then it seems Catalina didn't put the holes for the support bow. My 97 does not have them either. So far I have been able to get by without the Poptop. Though I wish I had one. It don't look to hard to install.

Edited by - Tom Potter on 02/18/2006 07:30:24

Tradewind
Admiral

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Response Posted - 02/18/2006 : 07:41:56

The pop top is something I would definitely like to add to my 98wk, if anyone has pics of the mounting holes I could use as a guide to drilling the holes it would be much appreciated.

The sales brochure I have for the 98 shows it as standard equipment, tho the PO said it wasn't.

Edited by - Tradewind on 02/18/2006 07:48:57

reuben
Navigator

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Response Posted - 02/18/2006 : 17:04:58

Hello & congrats -- you're going to love the boat, and so will your daughter. My 2 cents: If you're planning to overnight much, the pop-top is one of the most useful extras you'll ever buy; if you're mostly daysailing, it's fairly unnecessary, a wait & see option. We appreciate the pop-top most during long evenings at anchor when cooking below on the Princess, but have rarely put it up during the day.

Edited by - on

Ben - FL
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Response Posted - 02/18/2006 : 23:59:37

Welcome aboard Oldnewtimer!

I have and use my pop-top cover. It came with the boat from P.O. My observations are that it does snap on quite tightly. That is, the vinyl material is streched tight between the snaps. You will have to find or make a template for the installation of the snaps. If they are too much out of tolerance the cover may not work well. Maybe Catalina has such a template. Or maybe you could put a dab of chaulk or other marking medium on the vinyl cover snaps and, with the top up and bar in place, stretch the cover into position tranfering the medium to the point where the snaps need to be installed. Then you could acurately predrill the holes.

Edited by - on

coldducks
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Response Posted - 02/19/2006 : 13:51:06

oldnewtimer,
i dont know if you are aware that the boston boat show is this week. if you get a chance to go, there is a dealer there that goes every year from cape cod. they are CAPE COD WATER SPORTS. they bring a catalina 22 and the 250 every year. you could crawl all over the boat with tape measure and camera, it always has the pop top on, so you can see exactly how it is installed. they are the nicest guys and are very helpful. i believe they are located in falmouth and harwich. we did not buy our boat from them, but they are the ones we go to at the boat show when we need help. (our dearler is there too, but not nearly as helpful and they only bring the bigger boats.) since they are local to your area, i am sure they would be able to help you out.

Edited by - coldducks on 02/19/2006 13:56:02

Oldnewtimer
Deckhand

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Response Posted - 02/19/2006 : 15:50:47

Thanks to everybody for their friendly greetings and for their input on this question. I should point out that I haven't actually purchased the boat yet, but am at the "paid deposit, haven't done survey yet" stage, but figure barring complications we should close in a few weeks.

Arlyn, in this case there aren't any bow frame sockets on the boat, and no snaps. I take it from your answer that the snaps are screwed into the deck, not glued? If the screws go through the deck (rivets?) then I'm even more inclined to let a yard deal with this. As far as the pop-top being a delightful feature, all I can say is...bring it on!

Al, my plans/fantasies have me living on board for up to two weeks at a time during the summer, and the weather here can include extended periods (weeks) of fog and mist and cold and yuck, especially in July. Or sometimes in August. Or both. Of course it can also be great. Your basic crapshoot. Anyway I figure it's probably best to be prepared so this is something I'll probably do before my first season, but everything else can wait till experience helps us decide what, if anything, we need to add.

Coldducks, there are no holes or snaps on this boat. Do you ever make it down to Buzzard's Bay? We're based on Cuttyhunk Island, so if you ever make it down to those parts we can compare boats or something. Of course for that to happen I'll have to complete the purchase....stay tuned!

Tompotter, you're right, it's probably not too big a deal to install. Whether I do it myself (at this point unlikely) or have the yard do it I'll be sure to report here in more detail what's involved (with pics if I can figure out how to finagle that).

Tradewind, if your '98 sales brochure is true, it looks like you, I, and maybe Tompotter have/will have some of the last 250s Catalina made that didn't have the pop-top enclosure as standard equipment, as "my" '98 is #326. Obviously just barely a '98, given Tompotter's '97 is #321. I suspect we'll find other similarities -- found anything odd I should know about?!?

Reuben, as I mentioned above I do plan on spending potentially large chunks of (overnight) time on the boat, so I agree with you about the desirability of the enclosure.

By the way, just thought of this, does the enclosure come down to the BOTTOM of the companionway opening in back? I've seen a pic of pop-top from the stern but the aft part of the enclosure was rolled up so I don't know how far down that flap comes.

Ben, thanks for your ideas, I will remember that the cover needs to be nice and tight. In the absence of something from Catalina, I guess stretching the cover over the hardware and then marking through the snap holes will be the best method. If the snaps go into the actual deck, then I'd hope that Catalina production people would be smart enough to have the deck mold include little indentations or something where the snaps go. If the snaps go into that high density plastic stuff around the companionway then I guess measuring through snap holes or a Catalina template will be necessary.

Does anybody WITHOUT a pop-top know if there are any markings or indents or anything like that on the deck around the companionway for the enclosure cover? (I'm two hours from the boat, or I'd go look myself!)

Edited by - on

Tom Potter
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Response Posted - 02/19/2006 : 17:50:19

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Oldnewtimer
 Does anybody WITHOUT a pop-top know if there are any markings or indents or anything like that on the deck around the companionway for the enclosure cover? (I'm two hours from the boat, or I'd go look myself!)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I don't recall seeing any indents or anything resembing an area where the snaps would be placed.

BTW Do you know if the 250 your looking at is a tall or standard rig?

Edited by - on

Oldnewtimer
Deckhand

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Response Posted - 02/19/2006 : 19:12:45

Coldducks, wow, thanks so much for the heads up on the Boston Boat Show! I had been looking around for a boat show to go to, perhaps with my daughter in tow, to get ideas for the boat and to check out boatyards and inflatables and whatnot, but had only found what looks to be a pretty rinky-dink operation in Worcester sometime in the next month or so. Don't know how I didn't spot the one in Boston. Well, I do know, I'm still new at this! Anyway I'm going to figure out a way to get to Boston this week, thanks again for the alert.

As it turns out I'd checked out a 250wk that Cape Water Sports in Harwichport is brokering and found the owner there, Jeff, to be really helpful and as far as I can tell from my dealings with him, very upfront. I just wish his boat had had a few more extras. It sounds like your dealer is my broker -- am I right in assuming it's EYS in Hingham? So far my dealings with them have been pretty good, is there anything you think I might want to know from your history with them?

Tompotter, I had been assuming standard rig just because it doesn't seem like there are many tall rig 250s out there, and because it wasn't listed as one of the boat's selling point, but I will check on it. Do you find your Tall Rig to be a plus?

Edited by - on

Tom Potter
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Response Posted - 02/19/2006 : 19:37:13

The tall rig has its pluses and minus. You have 3 feet more sail which don't sound like much, but in light wind it makes a world of difference. However your the first to reef if the wind picks up. When I reef my tall rig it brings it down to a standard rig. That's why I have my main in the sail loft right now having a second set of reef points being installed.

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coldducks
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Response Posted - 02/19/2006 : 22:38:10

oldnewtimer,
yes, my dealer was eastern yacht sales. if you have a a choice, deal with SHEP, he will bend over backwards for you. we really did not have any "problems" except that our boat was delivered in february and we had asked for an early april launch because we had paid for our slip from april 1st, but it took them until memorial day to get it into the water. other than that, it went smoothly. they had someone go with us for the first sail, to check everything out and fine tune everything. be sure to ask for that. they are connected to hewetts cove marina, and lauched the boat right there, we were allowed a few days in a slip to get everything ready.

be sure to call them up and ask them for complimentary tickets to the boat show, they all do it, and ask them to leave your tickets at will call.

skip the worcester boat show, they usually have two sailboats in the entire show.

when you go to the boat show, you can pick up a dealer locator floor plan, you will see where every dealer is located. CAPE COD WATER SPORTS is usually in a room by themselves. they are so helpful.

one last thing, make sure that you have the canvas cover for the companionway hatch. if you dont see it, TELL eastern yacht sales to get it for you. if you dont have it, you ARE going to get water on your aft berth cushiion and floor during rainstorms when you are away from your boat. this entire forum will tell you that. make sure you get it.

the snaps for the pop top are in the fiberglass, not on the plastic edge. (i agree, pay someone to do it for you) the snaps come on the pop top.

good luck, and have fun at the show.

Edited by - coldducks on 02/19/2006 23:03:48

mday
Navigator

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Response Posted - 02/19/2006 : 23:38:38

I snapped a couple pictures of the pop-top fittings on my WB. Should be the same for a WK.

It looks like a piece of whiteboard is just screwed onto the sides of the hatch. It's std 3/4" and is 2 1/2" wide. The metal "cup" for the U support is only as deep as the board. Lots of caulk or some other setting compound underneath the whiteboard pieces.

This should give you the arrangement of the snaps as well.

Max

Edited by - on

Oldnewtimer
Deckhand

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Response Posted - 02/21/2006 : 07:12:45

Max, great pics, thanks, they make it all very clear. (Nice looking boat too!) I guess the only thing I wonder about now is how the bow frame is able to maintain upright position against tension from enclosure cover and wind, etc. when really there is just the 3/4 inch thickness of the cups (at least as far as I can tell?) to provide that support. But I haven't seen a mention of this being a problem so I guess we'll have to wait and see. Sounds like I'll want to make sure those cups go in as tight and snug as possible.

Coldducks, my broker at EYS is Peter Galvin, he seems like a pretty good guy. Assuming we close the deal on the boat in question, it's lying at Duxbury so other than the usual help you get from a broker I suspect it will be mostly me and the yard where the boat is lying (?). According to the broker the yard is one of those old well-respected New England yards, so hopefully I'll get good service on the way out, just hope they don't sock me too hard.

I'll probably wind up using a yard somewhere on Buzzard's Bay for next winter and beyond. I'm going to try to go to the Boat Show tomorrow and maybe again this weekend with my daughter (when she'd get her first chance to see our boat, too).

I'll make sure about the companionway cover. How does that attach, by the way -- more snaps?

Tompotter, I suspect in time I'd probably come to appreciate the tall rig but being a fairly rank beginner (and with a young daughter I'm anxious not to terrify!), I figure less power upstairs is probably best for now. On the other hand you pretty much take what you get, not like there are that many 250s for sale within a couple hundred miles of me -- if it turned out this boat was a tall rig that would be fine with me too!

Edited by - on

coldducks
Captain

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Response Posted - 02/21/2006 : 08:00:36

yes, more snaps. but surely you must have those. you will have a better idea after you see it at the boat show. enjoy

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johnsonp
Admiral

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Response Posted - 02/25/2006 : 21:40:43

Found the pictures.........

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Tradewind
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Response Posted - 02/25/2006 : 21:57:29

Sure would like to have one, I guess I need to call Catalina.

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