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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Barrier coat

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Jurek
Deckhand

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13 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/22/2006 : 18:36:17

This spring I plan on putting a new barrier coat on my boat C25FK.
I thing of using VC TAR2 or InterProtect 2000E.
Which product is better to use and would make a better protection ?
What would last longer ?
How many quarts of VC TAR2 would I need to put 1 layer or InterProtect 2000E ?

Thanks
C25FK5025

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2006 : 18:56:41

No tar No tar and No tar

Go with a 10 mil coat of the 2000E. Probably about 2.5 to 3 gallons. I think it works out to 4 coats.

No tar

dw

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2006 : 18:58:54

Regular vc 17 is just shy of 1 quart per coat for the bottom paint. I usually put on 2 coats with three quarts every season.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2006 : 20:13:38

Interlux 2000E and VC17 is an excellent combination.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2006 : 20:41:04

What they said, say no to tar. I used 4 quarts + of VC 17.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2006 : 07:01:51

2000E is good on both the hull and keel, but I preferred to use tar on the cast iron keel, because the keel gets nicks and bumps and occasional rust bubbles that need minor repairs, and I felt small repairs could be made more easily with VC Tar.

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2006 : 07:28:37

That makes a lot of sense for an iron keel.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2006 : 08:31:32

Jurek,

I use VC Tar as my barrier coat under my VC17m Extra antifouling paint. After being rather confused as to which barrier coating to use, Interprotect 2000e or VC Tar, I chose the VC Tar because that is the combination recommended by Interlux Paints. Additionally, during a paint seminar sponsored by my local BoatUS store, I asked a very knowledgeable Interlux representative what barrier coating to use, Interprotect or VC Tar, under my VC17m and he said "VC Tar".

According to Interlux's Boat Painting Guide, for blister protection you'll need to apply 4-5 coats of VC Tar2 followed by 2-3 coats of VC17m Extra or VC17m. Additionally, if fairing is necessary, they recommend you apply 1 coat of Interprotect 2000E after blasting or sanding, followed by a fairing compound then topped off with 4-5 coats of VC Tar2.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2006 : 09:01:49

Don, now that you mention it, I've been hearing more about boats being barrier coated with VC Tar than in the past. I used 2000E on the hull, and it worked great, but when you apply about 4 coats of 2000E, as recommended, it forms a really thick, tough skin, and, if you ever have to remove it, it's a real bear, although it can be done. VC Tar, on the other hand, can be removed with paint stripper designed for use on fiberglass. It isn't easy, but it's a lot easier than removing 2000E. The paint stripper sort of melts it, and it takes about the same amount of time and effort as it takes to remove ordinary bottom paint.

It would be good if Jurek, or someone else, would call Interlux's 800 number and ask why they are recommending Tar instead of 2000E overall, and why they recommend 2000E for the first coat after the boat has been sanded or blasted, instead of Tar. It sounds like the thinking in the industry is changing from what it was in the past, and we may need to get re-educated, to keep up with it.

If anyone calls Interlux, I hope they'll let us all know what's going on.

Edited by - on

Jurek
Deckhand

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13 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2006 : 19:22:07

I send e-mal yesterday to Interlux Tech Support with the question what is better to use VC tar or InterProtect. I get answer: InterProtect 2000 offers superior protection, while VC Tar is for a racing finish. If protection is what you desire, go with 2000

Edited by - on

dblitz
Navigator

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240 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2006 : 19:37:58

All of you will excuse me, but aren't barrier coats part of the mushroom factor? I had a 22 foot Oday that the PO swore needed a barrier coat to stem the osmotic penetration of water where all the water was actually coming from a problematic through hull and the deck fittings. The boat would have inches of water sloshing around every week. There is no way that osmosis would generate inches of water. Again, with my apologies to everyone, as perfectionists we go and try to remedy things permanently expending great sums of money and, more importantly, great amounts of time because as a diy society we can't get anyone in the service economy to do it for us at reasonable cost.
What will a barrier coat do? Is a barrier coat the equivalent of painting aluminum siding (that great "maintenance free" material)?
An old boat is so much more extreme than an old house because, while the advice is free, the supplies cost so much more.
Witness my own need to rebed all the deck hardware. Waiting for the seal material to partially harden is not all that you have to do, you also should saturate the core with epoxy and remove the core just under the hardware so that you can re-epoxy between deck and liner to "permanently" repair. What better example of the mushroom factor than this, rebedding becomes a multi-stage, multi-material, multi-day event for each individual piece of hardware.
If one is not a dreps (divorced, retired or employed in the private sector) how can one possibly hope to surmount the mushroom factor and actually sail (especially in the northeast).

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2006 : 22:01:21

I believe NIKE said it best. Just Do It.
As for barrier coat, it is certainly true that many boats should not bother even though there are some blisters. For others of us we see boats as systems that need to be maximized and a proper modern bottom is part of that. I spent several thousand dollars on the bottom of my 82 and sold it soon after. I lost money but I am always happy to see the new owners as opposed to hiding from them. These boats are so much more than a possession or asset, they are an extension. They become who we are. And yes, for heaven's sake sail, but let every place your eye falls as you sail bring a smile to your face.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2006 : 06:36:57

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Jurek
 I send e-mal yesterday to Interlux Tech Support with the question what is better to use VC tar or InterProtect. I get answer: InterProtect 2000 offers superior protection, while VC Tar is for a racing finish. If protection is what you desire, go with 2000
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Jurek,

That's very interesting...Thanks for getting and sharing that information.

Hmmm...I would assume anyone using VC17m antifouling is doing so for the speed performance so using a barrier coating other than VCTar is kind of defeating the purpose.

Another interesting tidbit from the oft-cited Don Casey...

"A barrier coat on a healthy bottom is an unnecessary precaution unless you're planning to take the boat to the tropics and use it there for several years. Even then, I would be reluctant to incur the expense, add the weight, and risk the consequences of adding additional chemicals into the mix until I saw real signs of osmosis." 

Duane, (and others opposed to VCTar)...Question: Why?

Edited by - dlucier on 02/24/2006 06:39:32

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2006 : 07:48:06

My local boat dealer refuses to use it because he says it is too difficult to work with. Do you have any photos of yours?

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2006 : 08:27:17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 My local boat dealer refuses to use it because he says it is too difficult to work with. Do you have any photos of yours?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Too difficult to work with???...Although it's been a number of years since I used the stuff, it went on just like any ol' kind of paint. I think people see the word "tar" in VC Tar and picture a thick black oooze, but it really has the same viscosity as any other paint.

As to why your local dealer thinks its too difficult to work with???...This amatuer, me, thought it went on rather easily and painless, so I'm clueless as to why a professional thinks its too difficult to work with???

From Interlux concerning VCTar...

* Self-levelling to give an excellent finish
* Easy to apply - overcoatable within hours
* No sanding required between coats
* Offers excellent barrier to water for osmosis protection and treatment
* Ideal primer base for all VC antifoulings

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2006 : 09:05:50

Don - I've heard its not the application that is difficult, butt the sanding down the road

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2006 : 09:08:38

Using VC Tar for racers and 2000E for cruisers makes sense. When 2000E is applied, it dries with a slight orange peel surface, but you can smooth it out some (but not completely) by sanding it lightly between coats. VC Tar goes on easily and is very smooth. I used 2000E on my hull, and felt the boat lost a very slight edge in terms of speed, due to the orange peel surface, but it was still fast. With VC Tar, you could achieve that silky smooth surface that makes it really fast.

I suspect the boat dealer doesn't like VC Tar because, if you have to sand it, it loads up a piece of sandpaper quickly and sometimes it forms little tar balls that stick to the hull. When you pick them off, they stick to your fingers. When you try to brush them off, they stick to your other fingers.

When I barrier coated my boat, I violated the Don Casey rule, because it only had one small blister, and didn't really need it. But, the reason why I did it was because it was so much work to strip all the old anti-fouling paint after 20+ years, that I decided it would make sense to barrier coat it, and that would ensure that it would be trouble free for another 20 years. Casey is probably right, but I felt better for having done it under the circumstances.

Edited by - on

Jurek
Deckhand

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13 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2006 : 18:07:32

How many quarts of Interprotect 2000 and VC Tar do I need for one coat?

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 02/25/2006 : 07:08:52

If I recall, we got 2 coats out of a gallon of the 2000. (that was probably doing a half assed job too) I know we put on 4 coats.

As usual, this is another one of those things that you never remember to write down or record or photograph and the second you are done with the projec the light bulb above your head turns on and you say - "I should have written the quantities down"

Therefore - get a second opinion before you start rolling the paint on. Oh - I do recall the interprotect will eat up a foam roller, theres a special roller you can use - and they have them at home depot, maybe someone can chime in with details on this?

Edited by - Champipple on 02/25/2006 07:11:16

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 02/25/2006 : 07:54:18

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> If I recall, we got 2 coats out of a gallon of the 2000. (that was probably doing a half assed job too) I know we put on 4 coats. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Same here. I bought two gallons of 2000E and kept rolling it on until it was all gone. I covered both the hull and rudder.

I used some kind of roller to put it on, and didn't have a problem with the rollers deteriorating. I think they were some kind of foam. Maybe I just got lucky and got the good ones by accident.

I'm not clear whether Duane had a problem with the roller covers or the roller cores deteriorating. A lot of boat paints will deteriorate ordinary cardboard roller cores. I haven't had any problems with rollers with either plastic or phenolic cores.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 02/25/2006 : 08:15:44

I think the cardboard was okay but the foam pulled away from it.

I remember if we worked quickly we could get a coat out of a rolller before it started falling apart.

dw

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 02/25/2006 : 09:07:57

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I think the cardboard was okay but the foam pulled away from it.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">That sounds like the kind of problem I had with cardboard cores. I think the paint solvents break down the glues that hold the core together and that bind the foam to the core. The rollers I used came from Home Depot, and were four inches wide and only about half the diameter of ordinary paint rollers. They have a white foam cover, and are usually used for edging around windows, doors and trim. They have plastic cores, and don't fall apart. They do wear out, however. The paint is so thick and adhesive in it's nature that it eventually starts to pull tiny pieces out of the surface of the roller covers, especially after the paint has started to thicken as a result of being in the roller tray for awhile. When that happens, the roller won't put the paint down as smoothly anymore. That particular type of roller cover isn't very expensive, and I bought them in packages of about six, and replaced it 2-3 times per coat, to make sure the paint went on smoothly.

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existentialsailor
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1180 Posts

Response Posted - 02/25/2006 : 11:07:58

2000E @ 8 coats, used 3 gallons, of course a Capri has less area to cover than a Catalina 25:

I used the west system #800 rollers (7"), got them at Defender. No issues.

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