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Bottom Paint Advice Needed

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Bruce Baker
Captain

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USA
402 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/03/2006 : 08:14:24

It's time again to paint the bottom of my boat. My main objective is to make the boat go fast, so I was thinking of painting it with teflon VC-17m (with Biolux). I should note that I race in the Potomac River, which is fresh water with a lot of algae in the summertime.

Right now, I've got some Petitt Horizon ablative paint on the boat. I know I can sand that stuff off and put on another coat of ablative paint without a lot of hassle. If I go that route, what paint should I use?

Alternativly, I can sand the ablative paint all the way off and put on the VC-17. I understand it's kind of difficult to work with--and I think you need to put on an undercoat of VC-tar. Is that right?

I'm wondering if it's worth it. Racers swear by VC-17, but the most recent issue of Practical Sailor gave it rather poor marks. Unfortunately, the PS tests were done in salt water, so if it rates poorly against barnacles, I don't care about that. If it's poor against slime, that's a problem.

Commments?

Bruce Baker
Falls Church, VA
"Yee Ha" 3573
'83SR/SK

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5904 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2006 : 09:34:17

I've never applied VC, Bruce, so I can't help you with the application of it, but if it has Biolux, it'll do a good job of preventing slime. At Brookville Lake, the algae problem was about as bad as it can get, and Biolux worked wonders. I don't think the serious salt water racers care about how well it resists barnacles, because they hoist their boats out of the water each day. All they care about is having the fastest paint. If you're in fresh water and want speed, VC should do a good job of keeping the bottom clean and fast.

I haven't heard of many bottom jobs going bad because of improper application of VC, but have heard of a couple, and would suggest you call the manufacturer's 800 number and get application advice straight from their technicians before you buy the paint. Ask the important questions, such as, "If my boat doesn't have a blistering problem, do I need to apply a barrier coat before I apply the antifouling paint? Do I need to apply a primer before I apply the antifouling paint? If I apply a barrier coat, do I need to apply a primer over that, or can I apply the antifouling paint directly over the barrier coat? How many coats of each should I apply? What thinners will I need for each type of paint?"

Also, follow the instructions on the label of each product. They tell you to apply the next coat within a certain period of time after you applied the previous coat, and following that schedule helps the paint bond.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3468 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2006 : 10:41:07

Bruce - You also in the Washington Sailing Marina with Rick ? I'm over at James Creek Marina.

End of last fall, I had the Wash Sailing Marina pressure wash the bottom and they indicated the PO had ablative paint on it. The PO had not painted it in 4 yrs. They said it was holding up good but probably would need painting this summer. So..I am in same boat as you in similar waters. The marina guys mentioned that if i were to go with an ablative paint which was the easiest thing to do and based on what they saw on my bottom, not much sanding involved, they recommended the ablatives with the anti-slime properties since the Potomac has that concern. believe they recommended the West Marine PCA paint which was top of the line (cost) ablative paint. For what it's worth, I believe Practical Sailor just reviewed all the paints in latest issue. I may be wrong - I'm at work. if so, when I get home I will give name of the magazine with the latest review.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2006 : 11:21:15

Bruce, on the recommendation of my repair gut (a hard core racer) I had VC-17 Offshore put on "This Side Up" about 5 years ago. I had it redone after last year's Nationals. The boat is kept on a hoist (in fresh water) so only the keel is painted and it gets cleaned before each race day (in the winter it's brushed from the hoist tanks, and in summer - once the water gets above 70 degrees! I swim under the boat and do a thorough job). The more you scrub this paint the harder and smoother it gets and I have been delighted with it.
Derek
P.S. Our lake water reaches 85 degrees in summer so we do have an algae problem, but simple brushing removes it.
Derek

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2006 : 13:04:01

Bruce,

Check out this link to [url="http://www.yachtpaint.com/usa/default.asp"]Interlux Paints[/url]. There you'll find "How to's" and "Boat Painting Guides" as well as some other helpful information and FAQ's.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Alternativly, I can sand the ablative paint all the way off and put on the VC-17. I understand it's kind of difficult to work with...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

VC17M is not difficult to work with...actually its probably one of the easiest bottoms to maintain with it needing only a simple washing before the next season's application.

From the Interlux website...

"VC17m Extra’s thin film yields a super smooth racing finish that would normally take days of tiresome sanding. The Teflon® finish is great for racing sailors and powerboats looking for that extra knot.

What’s more, VC17m Extra is easy to apply by roller or airless spray and dries in minutes allowing for same day launchings. When it comes time to recoat the next year no sanding is required, just clean and apply. Now that’s easy!"

Because VC17M dries(read "evaporates") so quickly, you do have to work efficiently when applying it. I use a 4" wide, small diameter (1"-1 1/2") sponge roller and a corresponding small roller pan to limit the amount of evaporation. After opening the can of VC17, I pour in the copper powder and mix it well. To further limit evaporation, I then put the lid back on tightly and, using a screw driver, I poke a hole in the lid close to the edge. This hole allows me to pour small amounts into my roller pan (just enough to load my small roller once or twice) as I work my way around the boat.

Having the lid on it also limits waste if it is accidently knocked over. Additionally, it allows one to mix the paint occasionally by simply putting your finger over the hole and giving the can a couple of swirls.

Edited by - on

At Ease
Admiral

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672 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2006 : 17:01:02

I'd check out March Practical Sailor before you use VC 17m. They did not think it was a very good product.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2006 : 18:28:03

Edited by - on

existentialsailor
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1180 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2006 : 19:02:59

Practical Sailor put the test paints on fiberglass slats and stucks them in the water for long periods of time. I found that VC17 would develope a bit of a slime film if the boat was not sailed for a few days (I'm in fresh water). However, taking the boat out for a sail, I would find on return that the slime had been removed by the movement of the boat. So if your boat sits on its slip or mooring and doesn't get sailed, VC17 probably isn't the best choice.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2006 : 22:15:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by At Ease
 I'd check out March Practical Sailor before you use VC 17m. They did not think it was a very good product.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I am not sure why there is any product other than VC 17 M Extra with Biolux for slime control. I do not know anyone with experience with VC 17 that would ever go back to anything else.If you are down to bare hull no is the time!!! My 4 quarts of red showed up today and a beautiful girl asked if she could paint my boat for me because it looks like fun. Now come on guys!
Practical Sailor is wrong... again.

This is a Catalina 25 one hour after being pulled after an entire season.

My boat, I don't see any slime.

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 03/03/2006 22:23:01

At Ease
Admiral

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672 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2006 : 12:06:07

Hey Frank...I was waiting for you to respond...PS seems to always bring out a negative comment. We know you do not like PS, but it is an unbiased test. I'm not in the market for bottom paint, so I do not have an agenda. For what it's worth, here are the results. The basic test was as Rick said. They put 25 panels in a saltwater canal in FL and 25 panels tied to the docks in CT. The panels were put in the water in July and removed in January. Of the 25 in FL, 1 was Excellent, 16 were Good, 5 were Fair and 3 were Poor. Of the 25 in CT, 0 were Excellent, 4 were Good, 21 were Fair and 0 were Poor. Some those rated Good or Fair had + or - with them. The VCm Extra was rated Poor (FL) and Fair (CT).

Edited by - At Ease on 03/04/2006 12:07:13

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2006 : 14:20:37

Did Practical Sailor test regular VC17m Extra w/Biolux and VC Offshore?

Are both the CT and FL test locations considered low fouling areas?

Edited by - on

existentialsailor
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1180 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2006 : 14:37:33

It says VC17m extra, VC Offshore was rated differently. I know when I did the research on what to use last year, I knew the boat would get slime on it if it didn't move. I remember racers saying they would take their boat out for a good sail before a race to make sure the hull was clean. I just don't see how something sitting still in the water is a realistic test, but then they also trashed the flashlight that is my favorite because they said it can't be operated with one hand! I operate mine with one hand all the time. One of the reasons I like it is because there is no switch to break or leak and it only cost $8!
Needless to say, I just recieved my last issue of PS, I'm not renewing.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2006 : 14:49:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by existentialsailor
 It says VC17m extra, VC Offshore was rated differently...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

According to Interlux...

"It’s the ideal paint for the Great Lakes, inland lakes and low fouling saltwater areas."

Are both the Connecticut and Florida test locations considered "low fouling saltwater areas"? If not, then I would think the PS results are quite suspect since VC17m Extra is considered to be primarily a fresh water performance antifouling paint.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5904 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2006 : 16:47:30

Practical Sailor is comparing apples and oranges. They're only rating VC for its anti-fouling properties, as if that's the reason why most people use VC. The reason why most people use VC is because it's fast. Its anti-fouling properties aren't very important to them. If PC rated anti-fouling paints for their speed, VC would be at the top of the pile.

Imagine if Motor Trend Magazine gave Ferraris a "poor" rating because they can't tow an 8000# load, like a Ford F350. People don't buy Ferarris for their towing capacity, and they don't buy VC for its anti-fouling properties. The PS rating is meaningless.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2006 : 18:38:35

Most everybody around here that races uses the VC-17 or the Baltoplate. The latter is a bit much for our boat. I've used everything from West Marines Bottom shield to Baltoplate, to the VC-17.

Everything is going to allow slime in the great lakes and probably everywhere else too. (at least everything legal) The important factor is how does the stuff come off. Most Racers send someone in to scrub before a regatta....If your coming to nationals you'll see it occur before the first race on Thursday.....If your just sailing around for the day, the slime is usually gone by the time your done. Some of the softer ablatives will bleed off, but you'll still get slime here and there. Baltoplate is slick as can be - but is made for a bottom that is continually being hosed off of a guy is diving in to clean it.

The reason most people who aren't racers like VC is that it is easy to apply and dries quick. You can put two coats on our boats in about an hour. It is also easy to take off - sponge and lacquer thinner will get most of it and a quick sand will get you back down to the barrier coat.

I'm with Frank on Practical Sailor as well. There was a time when they were an unbiased scientific type reviewing group. Apples and Oranges would never be put in the same basket.

There is usually safety in numbers and I'd bet if you walked the yards right now, 3 out of 8 sailboats are using VC on the great lakes. To me, that is a better review than PS ever gave.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2006 : 08:40:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by At Ease
 Hey Frank...I was waiting for you to respond...PS seems to always bring out a negative comment. We know you do not like PS, but it is an unbiased test. I'm not in the market for bottom paint, so I do not have an agenda. For what it's worth, here are the results. The basic test was as Rick said. They put 25 panels in a saltwater canal in FL and 25 panels tied to the docks in CT. The panels were put in the water in July and removed in January. Of the 25 in FL, 1 was Excellent, 16 were Good, 5 were Fair and 3 were Poor. Of the 25 in CT, 0 were Excellent, 4 were Good, 21 were Fair and 0 were Poor. Some those rated Good or Fair had + or - with them. The VCm Extra was rated Poor (FL) and Fair (CT).
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I know you were

So Bruce, you are buying VC 17m extra with Biolux aren't you?
"My main objective is to make the boat go fast, so I was thinking of painting it with teflon VC-17m (with Biolux). I should note that I race in the Potomac River, which is fresh water with a lot of algae in the summertime."

Edited by - on

existentialsailor
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1180 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2006 : 09:20:46

Bruce Schwab likes Epaint, he recommendeds it over on Sailing Anarchy and has it on Ocean Planet, guess it's a real PIA to put it on though. Probably not a bad alternative if you're looking for something more enviromentally friendly.

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2006 : 12:31:43

Last year I switched from Trinidad SR (hard epoxy) to ACT -- an ablative. ACT was recommended for application over the epoxy (after sanding, of course). It did incredibly well and there was little growth or slime when hauled in November. Of course, I don't have a comparison with anything else -- just saying it worked well in the lower Chesapeake.

Brooke

Edited by - on

Bruce Baker
Captain

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USA
402 Posts

Response Posted - 03/06/2006 : 07:14:17

Thanks for all your input. I am leaning in the direction of the VC-17m. My only concern is what to do to the bottom first. I found out last time that after a powerwash, I can sand it down to nearly bare bottom in a couple of hours with my orbital sander and some 60 grit sandpaper. Then what? More sanding with finer grit? Paint remover? VC-tar?

Thanks,

Edited by - on

existentialsailor
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1180 Posts

Response Posted - 03/06/2006 : 07:59:45

If you're going to sand (60 grit?) you'll need to wash the hull down afterwards. Interlux sells their own solvent for that, wash 202 or some such name. Others will tell you to wash it down with acetone. Point is to get all the dust and mold wax off.
When you put the VC17m on, start with the roller low on the hull and bring it towards you as you go up the hull, otherwise you'll wind up wearing it. Tyvek suit and gloves are a must, but you probably knew that.

There are a number of useful guides on the yachtpaint.com web site run by Interlux

Edited by - existentialsailor on 03/06/2006 08:08:27

bbriner
Captain

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349 Posts

Response Posted - 03/06/2006 : 13:35:34

March issue of 'Practical Sailor' has a review of bottom paints. FYI.

Edited by - on

Ericson33
Admiral

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USA
892 Posts

Response Posted - 03/06/2006 : 16:43:30

I was going the route of Vc17 and or Pedit Vivid, Then I found out that the boat was going to be sitting on a mooring during the winter so I put the cheapest paint I could find that was a hard epoxy West Marine Bottom Pro was what I finally used.

I tell you what for a hard epoxy bottom paint that cost 35.00 for a gallon I am very happy with it. I burnished the bottom of the hull before she was launched with 600 wet and dry, and when I got our spip and put the boat up on the hoist the green slim just fell of the bottom of the boat.

Now that the boat is up on a hoist I will be painting the bottom again next year, I think that one more year is going to be fine on this bottom paint. People like the Vc17 because it is so thin, It dries in 2 to 10 min. and its fast. It does come off rather easy if you rub the bottom of the boat on a runner some times, but it is the simplest paint out there to appy. To reapply the paint you wash off the hull and paint, It doesn't get any easier that that. I like Vivid for the fact that it is a good racing paint with ablative properties. It comes in any color you can think of, and there are many racers that stand behind the paint.

I personally think that in the long run VC17 is the paint to use for racing.

Edited by - on

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