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Cabin Floor

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najewicz
Deckhand

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USA
14 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/18/2002 : 20:16:22

Does anyone know what is under the cabin sole floor in the area around the companionway ladder? I have noted that my floor in this area is getting a little "springy" or maybe I have just put on a lot of weight over the winter. I have '82 swing keel that has been well maintained over the years.

I keep my boat in the water year round and my bilge is pretty dry, no more than an ounce or two makes it's way into the bilge after a few days of heavy rain. I know that it comes from the cockpit drains where they go through the transom, so I'm not too concerned. I just wipe it up evey week or so if it need it.

The area under the cabin floor does not seem to have to an opening to any other bilge area so I cannot inspect what is down there. Unless anyone can give me a better idea. I am going to drill a 1/2 inch hole near the side of the floor so I can asses if there is water in the area underneath the floor..... I can't figure where it would be comming from unless my keel trunk is leaking.... not a pleasant thought.

If anyone had any experience with this type of problem or understands the Catalina construction details in this area, I would appreciate hearing from them.

Thanks

Dave Najewicz
'82 C-25 std rig, swing keel

Edited by - on

Bristle
Admiral

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USA
834 Posts

Response Posted - 05/18/2002 : 22:09:19

Welcome, Dave... I can't speak to the construction of the swinger, but I have a suggestion for your transom drains: Use your finger tip to wipe a barely visible amount of silicone sealer around the flared edges of the brass tubes, especially at the bottom of the tube inside the cockpit. The same technique works on the anchor locker drain when it lets water seep into the locker under the V-berth.

Somebody else will have some observations about your sole.

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 SR-FK #5032 "Passage" in CT

Edited by - on

John V.
Admiral

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USA
559 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2002 : 21:59:03

Dave,

I was also concerned with the lack of access to the bilge on my 77 sk. I installed two inspection ports from west marine they are either 4" or 5" the type with an "O" ring and a screw in cap. So I measured and cut 4" holes on opposite sides of the keel slot. The portside inspection port is under the dinette table. I found the area to be quite wet. With the access ports in place I sponged out the water and then ran a small fan for several days to dry out the area. The floor of the cabin is a sandwich of fiberglass plywood and more fiberglass. It's a very strong setup but if the layers become delaminated it could get mushy as you describe. I have a squeak at the foot of the companionway stairs, but it remains strong. The wood I removed was damp but not rotten. If you feel that the foot of the companionway is the mushy spot perhaps that is the spot to install a port. There is space on either side to place a small electric bilge pump. I plan on rigging one that it can be used plugged into the cigarette lighter with the hose out into the cockpit. I just re-read your message wondering where the water under the cabin sole could come from. Water can get there from either side. You may have bumped a stanchion breaking its deck seal. water can flow between the hull and the liner into this area.

Good luck solving the problem, let me know what you find and I'll try to help.

John V. Nin Bimash II
77 C25 sk/sr #153

Edited by - John V. on 05/19/2002 22:08:53

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2002 : 09:17:48

When I bought my boat new in 1981, I noticed springiness in the cabin sole, just at the base of the companionway ladder. I bought my boat from a dealer who was located only about five miles from the Catalina factory. I asked the dealer if he could do anything about it, because I was concerned that repeated flexing over the years could result in cracking of the fiberglass sole at that location. The builder drilled three or four holes in the floor, pumped a fiberglass compound into it, and then filled the holes. That made the floor solid. Looking back, I assume C-25s were all that way, and, after all these years it doesn't seem to have resulted in any problems with them, so, perhaps my concern was unwarranted.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2002 : 22:29:22

Dave Najewicz,

(the [Preview] feature is really screwing up -- I hope this posts O.K.)

I have a 1979 swing keel that I think has been kept in salt water all its life, and probably with the keel cable under load when the boat wasn't in use. My cabin sole (floor) is getting a bit too soft for comfort around the base of the steps. To get access to that area, I cut through the tabbing from under the quarterberth to under the cabin sole along side the keel trunk. (I was replacing shoddy tabbing, installing bilge pumps, and investigating an old hull repair of dubious quality.) The laminated sole seems to consist of a fairly thick top layer of molded fiberglass, a generous layer of filler mush (looks like sawdust and polyester resin), a layer of plywood (I forget the thickness, but I can check if you're interested), and a thin, rough sealing layer of fiberglass on the bottom. This whole stack added up to about an inch in my boat (therefore it shouldn't flex when walked on). The bottom of the stairs is attached to the sole by heavy aluminum angles and bolts (maybe machine screws w/nuts, but probably just lag bolts, I'm not sure). I very much doubt that the factory went to any special trouble to seal those holes from water intrusion into that plywood core. From time to time that area of the cabin sole is bound to get a soaking, from wet people, extreme spray, unexpected rain, spilled drinks, really high bilge water, etc. Once that area starts to sag a bit, it's going to form a puddle around those bolt holes, and lead additional water into the core.

There's no structural support directly under the staircase risers between the sole and hull (except the keel trunk). This may or may not be a bad thing. Bear with me for a brief rambling tangent. When I first got my C-25, and was bringing it home through strange waters (Boca Raton inlet, inside the three drawbridges), I ran over some sort of submerged rubble with the swing keel most of the way down. The keel rode up over whatever was down there, and then dropped probably more than a foot in free-fall until the cable suddenly came tight again. The resulting thunderous WHAM! "rang" the entire hull and rigging like a giant bell. It was a very scary moment, followed by a hasty and aprehensive inspection of a boat I wasn't yet familiar with, but nothing had broken. The reason I mention this, is that when the cable receives such a sudden shock load, the more flexibility there is in the winch support strucure, the lower the peak load on everything, particularly the cable and its attachment to the keel. I suspect that providing too rigid a support for the weight on the winch may actually increase the odds of a catastrophic cable failure! (The mechanical engineers among us can probably confirm my hunch that letting one of these 1,500 lb. keels fall a foot or so, and then stopping it in less than an inch is going to produce a maximum force several times the normal static load on the keel support items.)

I plan to repair and reinforce that area of the cabin sole during an annual haul-out, but I will be very cautious about getting carried away greatly increasing rigidity. Also, anyone considering adding some sort of compression post in the bilge there under the stairs from the sole to the hull should be sure whatever they add has a generous footprint against the hull to evenly distribute shock loads such as I've described. It wouldn't do to drive a skinny but rigid post down through an unreinforced spot in the hull well below the waterline and in a hard to get at place in the bilges. Even if the cable didn't break, you'd still be in trouble.

Aren't I just a bundle of cheer?<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

najewicz
Deckhand

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USA
14 Posts

Response Posted - 05/22/2002 : 00:35:31

Thanks to all for the replies, as I suspected I will have to do some cutting to get at this. Leon, as a practicing mechanical engineer I agree with your assessment of the shock loading situation..... better to have some flexibility to absorb the shock load rather than transmitting it directly to the hull.

I am still tring to understand how water would get into this area. The area under the cabin floor seems to be built up from the hull with "tabs", as you put it, all around the entire cabin floor section. It appears to be built like a box section. although the section of underneath the table ( dinette version) and the head area may empty into it. When I had some window leaks a few years ago I would alway find the water lying in the under dinette seat areas or along side the water tank on the starboard settee lying up against the tab section.

Hmmm I guess I just won't know much unil I cut into it.

Again thanks for all the great suggestions. Whenever I have a problem this fourm is a great resource.

Dave Najewicz
'82 cat-25 sk,std rig

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 05/22/2002 : 08:45:32

Dave,

There are limber holes from at least one compartment, probably more. Secondly, any water that would enter through the rub rail in some areas, for example, (like in the head) would find its way down to this bilge area under the sole.

See my post regarding Problems..
http://www.catalina25-250.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=907

The area I refer to connects to the area in question. We installed two inspection plates in the sole. The size was only five inches, but, if you are looking to reinforce the area, you might think about installing an inspection plate that is a little larger than that so you can get some sealed 2x4's or the like in there. Plus, with the plate, you can monitor the water that is in there...

BTW, this water should make its way back to the bilge via limber holes...

DW

DW

Duane Wolff
"The Flying Wasp"
C-25, #401 std,sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2dc20b3127cce9cd2f45b211a0000004010" border=0>

Edited by - on

najewicz
Deckhand

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USA
14 Posts

Response Posted - 05/22/2002 : 22:38:28

Thanks for the comments Duane.

I drilled a 3/4" hole in the tabbing (vertical riser supporting the sole) between the cabin sole and the area under the quarterbearth, about 3" up from the hull. I pushed about 2 feet of dry line through the hole and it came out dry, so I was encouraged. I then drilled a 1/4" hole in the sole itself. the wood core seemed dry, however it was clear the glass sole had pulled away from the wood. There was about a 1/16" gap between the glass and the wood. This delamination is what seems to be causing the " springyness" in the sole.

I don't know what caused the delamination, however the boat is 20 years old (17 of those years in upstate NY where the temperature ranges from -20 to 90 F) so there is some potential for the delamination due to thermal cycling of materials with different thermal expansion coefficients. Anyway I plan to drill a few small holes in the sole and add some the fiberglass ( or epoxy) matierial used to repair wod rot. Does anyone have any good suggestion on the best stuff for these types of repairs? I would certainly appreaciate any direct experience with repairing delaminiation. The area is not very large only 2-3 sq ft at most.

Despite the fact that it seems to be dry in this area now, I think I will also add an inspection port, so I can check if any water is collecting in the area below the sole.

Leon - I did not see any way for water to "get" from the under sole area to the main bilge. there are no holes ( linber or otherwise) in the tabbing. You are right the water could come from the rub rail or other deck penetrations in the area of the head.However I do not see how it could get into the make bilge under the quarterberth. I may borrow a "boroscope" from work to look around in the area in more detail.

Again thanks to all for the good information.

Dave Najewicz
'82 cat-25 SK std rig

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/23/2002 : 09:49:00

Dave:

The penetrating epoxies for repairing rotten wood may not help you much for that floor--they have very low viscosity. I would use regular epoxy thickened slightly with micro-fibers (so it can still flow) to fill the void between the floor and the fiberglass and the wood, rather than trying to get the glass to stick down to the wood. I'd keep all weight off the area till the epoxy has cured. That way, it shouldn't pull apart later.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette "Passage" in SW CT

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