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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Small lake vs. Big water

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Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/16/2006 : 13:50:08

Hello folks,

In responding to another post elsewhere, I started thinking about something a former dock neighbor said to me one time. This was when I had my Cal 21 and I was on an even smaller reservoir (1/4th mile x 1 mile). My sailing neighbor mentioned, after I lamented how small our sailing grounds were, that he has sailed extensively on bodies of water of all sizes, and felt that he has learned the most about sailing on that little reservoir. Because, he said, it forced him to sail smarter, make more decisions and other stuff like that.

Is that all hooey? Does anyone else have a thought on this? I just thought this might be an interesting topic of conversation.

Ben
Beneteau 361
Viking Kitty
Columbus, Ohio

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 03/16/2006 : 14:28:14

Ben: I'm not sure I agree about the size of the pond, but I DO believe that we learn to sail best in small boats. There's a terrific book about that: "First You Have to Row a Little Boat." I am amazed at people who buy 30+ foot boats -- or even C25s, as their first sailboat. Sailing a small boat that will throw you in the water when you make a mistake will teach you how to avoid an accidental gybe, or to reef early, or pinch in gusts and fall off in lulls in ways a keel boat can't. I'm so glad I started sailing in Sunfishes and dinghies, and the first boat I owned was a 17' Mobjack racer. Had I started in a C25 or bigger, I'd be an even worse sailor than I am now, which is frightening to contemplate.

Maybe that's what your neighbor was really talking about.

Brooke

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 03/16/2006 : 14:33:52

Our lake is approximately one mile across and we always joke about how the America's Cup teams should come here to practice, since every five minutes it's ready 'bout...grind, grind, grind...ready 'bout grind, grind, grind. So, yes, I believe it's true, because you can't sail on the same tack for very long, there are relatively more obstacles, and the wind fluxuates constantly.

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Charlie Vick
Captain

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USA
423 Posts

Response Posted - 03/16/2006 : 14:44:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Ben
 
Is that all hooey?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Not at all!

I have a friend who is part owner of a Beneteau 50 he keeps in BVI plus he is a delivery captian. One day I was talking sailing with him and told him of a wonderful sail I'd had the weekend before and the wind was just right out of the SSE to let me reach for 4 hours without a tack, which is the only time I've ever been able to do that, and he says to me "How would you like to do that for 4 days?"

Personally I think it would get a little old, but it made me think about sailing on small lakes.

I know on Tenkiller you are constantly having to watch what you are doing as far as wind direction and sail trim. It is surrounded by small mountains which "swirl" the wind so its never coming from the same direction for any great length of time. This plus the width of the lake (maybe 1/4- 3/4 mile) which keeps you constantly tacking, in my feeble little mind has to make you a better sailor. Not necessarily better than other sailors, just a better sailor.
There are so many other things you have to worry about on the big water, beside just sailing the boat, than you do on a small lake I think its really hard to compare the two.
Ok now that I've talked myself in a circle I'll quit.
I'm sure other lake sailors will chime in on this.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 03/16/2006 : 15:56:30

Usually I sail out of Mission Bay, which takes about 10 tacks. Once in the Pacific, I stay on one tack for 30 minutes or longer, flop for La Jolla, and work that tack for 2 hours. Gybe for home, set the chute or pole out the main and sit for an hour. Gybe down the channel. You get the idea.

What I really love to do and is so much fun is to sail through Mariner's Cove, which is the Mission Bay free anchorage. Its about the size of your lake. It takes tons of skill to thread the tacks through the anchored boats, avoid the boats on buoys, avoid the shallow areas, tack around the buoy at the head of the cove, follow all wind shifts, gybe away down the cove back towards home.

Much better practice and learn so much more compared to sailing out on the big ocean. Very fun to do on a rough, windy day. The cove is almost always upwind/downwind.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 03/16/2006 : 15:57:52

Of course I should also say I love to tack out of Mission Bay on a big wave day, put the boat on a reach, and try to surf the big waves. When they are 6 feet or higher and wind is over 10 knots this is a ton of fun.

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 03/16/2006 : 18:14:48

It's all different based on each location. I think you can learn a lot specific to how you make your decisions. That coupled with learning about various characteritsics of the surrounding land and weather and how that impacts you make for great learning experiences. Take a look at Sailors Wind - a book by Stuart Walker; there is something there for multitudes of locations.

For example there are times here where you can get an oscillating wind on a bigger body of water, you could tack many times on one leg, or you could hold. Your decision might decide the race.

dw

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existentialsailor
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1180 Posts

Response Posted - 03/16/2006 : 18:28:11

Folks tell me I'll be a better sailor because of being on the lake. This summer, I'll be playing with some folks who really know how to sail. I expect I'll learn a lot, even though it won't be on the lake.

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stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 03/16/2006 : 22:46:35

I found that the ocean is a more predictable place to sail and I think generally safer because you have the coast guard, and you have fellow sailors who know the rules of the road who are more likely to honor the code of the sea by helping out a stricken vessel.
Whereas on a lake, you get those quick squalls and terrain affected gusty winds that can change direction without warning, you get confused wave action and you are more likely to be on your own if something bad happens. Lakes are more likely to be populated by boaters without respect or knowledge of the rules of the road (read idiots).
I've had more weather related bad experiences on a lake than on the ocean.

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tmhansen
Captain

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USA
397 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2006 : 01:08:12

My 2 cents. I'd agree with your neighbor to the extent that lake sailing makes you more attentive to the sails. You have to be because the wind is always changing direction on you. On the other hand I think the ocean and the great lakes with their variable currents and swells are more challenging. Bringing the boat into the dock with a cross current and a strong wind is something I don't expect you will experience on the lake.

The great thing about having a trailerable boat is that you can do both- enjoy the warmth of a lake and then the beauty of the ocean with all its wild life. My son and were watching whales spouting on Sunday, from the highway at San Simeon (Hearst Castle).

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OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3523 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2006 : 05:39:38

Where I presently sail, the river is perhaps 1/4-1/2 mile wide but depending on which marina you come out of there is less available sailing due to draft concerns. That is why the fishfinder has been so helpful to me. You can use the charts but oftentimes one tries to get the most out of each tack and that requires going outside the channel markers. In the channels, depths are 20-30 feet but can drop off rapidly outside of the markers. The Potomac River also has a tide change of about 2 1/2 feet and there are a few nearby areas where the depths can go down to 1 foot. As one travels further South on the river, then the river has width increases to 1-2 miles across and the draft is better as well. The river has unlimited travel heading south where it opens up into the Chesapeake Bay. But to get to the bay is a heck of trip and not even sure if i will ever get down that far. Depending on the sinds, the best would be coming from the west and then one could travel great lengths with little tacking except in those areas where the river bends. oftentimes the winds cpme from the southwest and that makes tacking a necessity if heading south.

The other thing we have to contend with in my area, besides other boaters, is the noise and buzzing about of airplanes coming into Natl Reagan Airport, the Spirit Of Washington and the Dandy river cruise boats, Washington harbor Police, Fairfax County & rescue boats, lot's of Coast Guard boats (mainly the small ones but yesterday cmae acroos a ship going my way), and then constant helicopters buzzing about. At night it gets more peaceful and the you can hear the ducks, etc otherwise....noise cancelling headphones would be a nice option to be included with all boats purchased for use on the upper Potomac ! Once you head south of the airport and especially past the Wilson Bridge (Oh yeah - forgot..we also have bridge construction going on), then it is peace and quiet except for the occassional Spirit of Washingtom boat heading to Mount Vernon.

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2984 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2006 : 08:06:14

For me, day sailing the local Corp lake (3 x 5 miles) is easier than Great Lakes cruising.

Great Lakes cruising I believe can be reasonable characterized as a step between local lake sailing and blue water cruising.

While most of it falls into the category of coastal cruising and day passages of 25-40 miles, there is opportunity for stretching it out. A passage between Michigan's lower and upper peninsula for example can be 65 miles and crossing from Michigan to the Georgian Bay is 100 miles, crossings or angular courses on Lake Michigan can be similar.

Such passages require consideration of weather, navigation, timing, meals while underway, and watches. They yield a variety of new marinas, anchorages, hazards and sailing conditions.

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Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2006 : 08:18:54

Arlyn, and others, bring up a very good point; the difference between technical sailing and seamanship. I wholeheartedly agree that Great Lakes and ocean sailing develop and require greater seamanship skills. I race with some guys that I think are top-notch technical sailors, but who have developed little or no knowledge of seamanship.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5936 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2006 : 08:22:42

Last year I moved from an inland lake in southern Indiana to the Chesapeake Bay, and I think each teaches you different skills. There's no better place to learn to read the wind and trim sails to the nth degree than a small inland lake, where the wind is constantly shifting and swirling. On a small lake, all navigation is within line-of-sight, and tides, currents, and big waves are non-existent. On big coastal waters, you have to learn how to find a navigational mark ten miles away, and to distinguish it from the half dozen other marks in the area, and you have to learn how to play a tidal current, and how to anchor in challenging conditions, and how to sail through a thunderstorm when you're too far from your marina to be able to get back. For me, the biggest challenge was learning to singlehand my 35' boat in and out of the slip. The first time I took it out, I bumped another boat

(no damage), and for the next two weeks I sat in my slip and studied the prevailing wind direction and options for backing her in or putting her in bow first, and the sequence for getting my docklines on the pilings. (I was afraid that, if I bumped another boat, they might not let me stay in their marina.

)

I think the answer to your question is that you learn to do some things better on a small lake, but you have to sail on big waters to learn the things that you can't learn on a small lake.

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ct95949
Captain

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Aruba
300 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2006 : 09:03:21

I purchased my boat at Lake Oroville and shortly after decided I wanted to move to a location with more wind and access to the ocean.While I would never go back, every time I drop an anchor with all the tide and current calculations,I think about that peaceful lake

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stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2006 : 11:19:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Bringing the boat into the dock with a cross current and a strong wind is something I don't expect you will experience on the lake.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">quote from tmhansen

I had LaBarca at a Navy marina on Vancouver Island for the first 9 months that I owned her, and I thought docking was simple - because they gave me a newbie slip that was easy to get into and out of.
When I took LaBarca inland to Shuswap lake I had several nasty encounters with a current that runs thru the channel that the marina is located on. The channel connects two lakes, of vastly different sizes, the current varies from day to day depending on water usage at a downstream hydro plant and downstream city usage. The channel is bounded by high sheer hills and cliffs, causing winds and gusts that don't exist out on the lake. Many times I've returned to the marina because there was no wind on the lake only to encounter contrary winds and bursts of wind in the channel. I've been pinned to the public dock, unable to get to my slip because of the wind and current.

That said, there are lots of great things about being at the lake and equally many great things about being on the ocean.
Steve Milby captured it with his line [quote]I think the answer to your question is that you learn to do some things better on a small lake, but you have to sail on big waters to learn the things that you can't learn on a small lake.[/quote]

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OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3523 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2006 : 12:24:23

Another issue to contend with between small lakes/bodies of water and big water is navigational rules. When i sialed on the South Shore Long Island it was rare I came up against anything other than a small & mid-size power boats. But when I sailed in the Long Island Sound, the responsibility factor increases significantly. It is then that one learns that a sailboat does not always have the right of way. You learn that real fast when dealing with tugboats towing a barge or an oil tanker. It s not just the rules of the road that are important but when sailing it is how you apply them with advanced planning to avoid situations.

Also as Steve indicated are the navigational issues. On large bodies of water, when fog sets in, one has to be much more aware of their bearings/use of the compass.

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