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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Mainsail reefing

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Mark Loyacano
Navigator

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USA
247 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/30/2006 : 21:27:16

Interesting

.

http://www.sailcdi.com/sailpdf/Mainsail%20Reefing%20Manual%201_02.pdf

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 03/30/2006 : 21:47:07

They've got to be kidding! Can you imagine the potential future liabilities associated with their decision to represent it as a reefing system?

Edited by - on

Russ.Johnson
Commodore

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USA
859 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2006 : 22:17:14

I would have never thought about mounting a CDI furler on the mainsail.

I found the ad for this CDI Mainsail Reefing.

"You can spend more, but you can't buy a better, more reliable, lower maintenance reefing system."
Cruising World - April '06 - page 184

Edited by - on

kevinmac
Admiral

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USA
732 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2006 : 22:29:19

J.B.,

Everyone else probably knows what you mean, but if you have time to explain what these potential future liabilities are, I would learn from it. There must be one or more issues with this that a newbie can't see. Not that I am thinking of installing it you understand, I just don't understand your reference to future liabilities.

Thanks,

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2006 : 23:00:09

Hi Kevin,

Furler sails are notorious for jamming so that the sail can't be rolled in and also for blowing out in high winds.

I watched a boat sailing with their furling genoa fully deployed going out of my cove last fall get hit by high winds as they approached the mouth. The headsail filled, they broached, then turned downwind out of control and nearly grounded on the lee shore. All the while, they were trying to overcome the force of the wind in the sail in order to refurl it. Also, look at all the ragged furling sails in the recent post-hurricane photos on the Boat U.S. website.

So, now CDI is specifically marketing a piece of equipment for the purpose of managing the exact conditions in which that piece of equipment has exhibited its weakest, and most dangerous, performance.

The last thing you need when the wind starts kicking up is to have to try and cope with two or three sails that are difficult or impossible to furl, or that blow out after you've gotten them furled.

So, I anticipate there being some accidents that will ultimately spawn some product liability lawsuits.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2006 : 23:12:21

IMHO: A mainsail is a bit different animal than a large jib or genny as they are cut a flatter. Also, clewed to the boom, they present less opportunity to get out of control during the furling (reefing) process.

All that said, I have conventional hank on sails on my boat... simpler, less to go wrong. With a downhaul line rigged, not that much trouble to get them on the deck when single handing.

I've seen a number of boats come in from offshore with shredded jibs due to furler malfunctions. If you live by the mantra 'furl early and often' you'll probably not get into trouble.

Edited by - on

kevinmac
Admiral

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USA
732 Posts

Response Posted - 04/03/2006 : 08:07:44

JB,

Thanks for the explanation. A question or two more if you have time.

It sounds like what you are saying is you don't like ANY furling sail, headsail or main, but especially the main, correct?

The people you watched out of control with their furling genny - why didn't they just release the jib sheet, let the sail flail, get the boat under control, then furl the sail? Motoring into the wind if necessary?

I take it the difference with a hank on jib would be that they could have released the jib halyard to drop the jib.

I have a C250WK with a roller furled 135, and have very little experience with it on the whole. I sailed a C25 with roller furling in the San Juans, and it was that experience that convinced me to get roller furling.

So if there is a trap here I don't understand, a problem I will have someday, I hope you can help me learn about it in advance...

Thanks,

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 04/03/2006 : 09:09:55

You're right, Kevin, that I'm not a fan of roller furling. However, my new boat currently has a roller furled 135, as well. So, over time my opinion may well change. With that said, though, I firmly believe that the increased range of sailing conditions and the ease with which hanked foresails can be dropped in an emergency will continue to make hanks my preferred choice, and I anticipate removing the roller furler from Sea Trac before she goes to sea.

Regarding furling mainsails, I just don't get it. You have to haul a line one way or other. So, what you mostly gain with a furling mainsail is the elimination of having to flake the sail. As far as mainsail reefing goes, I personally think it is a paltry substitute due to the dramatic change in sail shape, center of effort, and the risk of malfunction as already discussed. However, for nothing but light air sailing and for those that, like Bruce said, furl early and furl often the minor conveniences might be worth the risk.

As to the boat that I observed lose control, my opinion is that the ego of the skipper (we can sail in this) and the inexperience of the crew (college students filming a project movie) led to near catastrophe. The skipper continued to try and head up while the crew alternately tried to sheet in and to furl at the same time. Motoring into the wind was not an option, as the wind was blowing too strongly. IMNSHO, the proper course of action was to let fly, head off, gain control, reassess, and reconfigure or retire. (BTW, not a single one of them was wearing, or ever donned, a PFD.)

After eventually gaining control, mostly because they'd been blown behind the lee of the cove entrance, they furled the foresail and then proceeded out to the lake under a full, but tightly sheeted, mainsail. Once they reached the center of the lake, they unfurled the foresail and I observed them sailing away with their toerail completely buried. My expectation was that I'd hear about the boat having broached and sunk when I returned the next weekend, but apparently they made it back all right.

Edited by - Sea Trac on 04/03/2006 09:11:53

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/03/2006 : 09:28:27

As a singlehanded sailor whose boat is a bit of a squall magnet, I can say unequivocally that having roller furling when conditions take a turn has been, for me anyway, soooo much better over my hank on days. I can't count how many times I've had to stuff a soaking wet genoa in the V-berth while clinging to a slippery, pitching, rolling, and heaving foredeck only to then try to clip on a working jib in the right order. On more than one occasion I wished that I had installed seatbelts on the bow.

With roller furling,...Shangri-la!

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 04/03/2006 : 10:28:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 As a singlehanded sailor whose boat is a bit of a squall magnet, I can say unequivocally that having roller furling when conditions take a turn has been, for me anyway, soooo much better over my hank on days.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I, and likely others, would be interested on your and other's thoughts and experiences regarding jamming, blow-outs and reefed performance, Don. Perhaps my experiences on other peoples' boats and the articles that I've read have unfairly skewed my perception.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/03/2006 : 16:47:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Antares
 I, and likely others, would be interested on your and other's thoughts and experiences regarding jamming, blow-outs and reefed performance...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

In four seasons, I've never had a single jam nor have I been unable to furl my sail (I have a Harken furler). A lot of problems are averted if the furling line has the proper lead angle going into the drum. Additionally, a lot of operator induced problems can be averted if one keeps a hand on the furling line when letting out the sail and keeps some tension on the genoa sheet when furling it in.

Regarding blowouts, I haven't had one and do not know of anyone else with a furler having blown a sail, but I do know a few hank on sailors who have blown head sails.

As for reefing a furling genoa, people have furlers for the convenience and ease, not for performance when reefed. I've found that pointing gradually drops off the more the headsail is furled, but I have furled it down to have a hankerchief sized storm sail with some success. Since the C25 sails great under headsail alone, instead of reefing both the main and genoa when the winds pipes up, I will simply drop the main and just use a full genoa. The boat sails surprisingly well this way and has a balanced helm. One day I was feeling adventurous and experimented sailing with different setups (with and w/o the main) on different points of sail while looking at pointing ability and speed and found that performance between the two setups to be almost negligible. (The fastest my boat has gone was 8.4kts and it was under headsail alone)

For me, I'll never own a boat without roller furling.

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 04/03/2006 : 17:08:53

Thanks, Don. I guess that I'll have to approach my new rig with more of an open mind and less of one of trepidation. Guess time will be the ultimate judge.

Edited by - on

ilnadi
Captain

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452 Posts

Response Posted - 04/03/2006 : 17:20:28

One difference: I have read elsewhere that in-mast mainsail furlers have been known to jam more than headsail furlers and in-boom mainsail furlers (ok, this is anecdotal third-hand info so don't shoot me)

Second difference: a headsail you can let go of the sheets and furl in anything but a downwind run (I have furled in after getting caught in a howling beam reach); you can also drop it if the furler jams. same with an in-boom mainsail you can drop and flake if furler jams.

In-mast furling I guess you can let go of the outhaul (not all setups let you do thay, most I have seen are hauled to a runner in the boom so if you let go you'll end up with a fuller mainsail). In short, if furler jams the sail stays up.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3502 Posts

Response Posted - 04/03/2006 : 21:37:16

I always liked the convenience of the furling jib/genoa - mainly the ease of letting out the sail or taking it in. Secondary was the benefit of shortening the sail if the wind picked up. Those were both benefits and I experienced no negatives.

I have an open mind regarding a main sail furling rig. I would want to see it in operation. See how smoothly it operates and what others experiences were but it may still just not be for me. The furling jib/genoa has a real benefit for the single handed sailor or even with others on board. No one has to go forward to tend to the sail. Most times, the only issues with a jib/genoa is putting it up and taking it down and for that the furling rig is a great convenience. The main sail is easier to take down in that you can do that partially from the cockpit. I guess what goes thru my mind is that looking at conveniences I would like to have, I would rank the furling jib/genoa a higher priority, moving the electrical panel to a more convenient location a middle priority and a main sail furler way down the list since it's cost versus benefit derived (for me) would place it lower on the list.

95% of the time, the winds are never uncontrollable, catching me off guard. The 5% when the winds did catch me off guard, I took in my sail significantly or both all the way and motored back. Never had an issue with a furling rig other than beneficial. I would certainly rather take in the jib part or all the way with a furling rig when the winds pick up all of a sudden rather than send my wife, kids or myself to the bow to tend with a jib. I think the same would go for a main sail but less of a concern since the main sail is so much closer to the cockpit area, easier to tend to and can be set up for jiffy reefing.

We have some very seasoned sailors on this forum. I wish I could say the same for those down at the marina. Many do not have the experience, do not often even go out on their boats. I believe it is the experience level of the sailor that is more the issue when winds start to blow than the mechanical aspects of a furling system...at least a furling jig/genoa system. Don't know enough about the main sail furler but always interested in what is out there.

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 04/04/2006 : 07:18:25

I'm entirely with Don as a singlehander with a furler. I sailed for years with hanked foresails, and sometimes in a blow struggled with dropped sails blowing over the side of the boat. Going forward on a C25 in a blow to get a downed foresail under control, or to change from a 150 to a 110, is not fun. In two years with a CDI furler I've not had a single jam. When the wind picks up, I roll in the sail; when the wind dies, I unroll. It's a pretty simple system that's been perfected over the years. Is it foolproof? Of course not -- what is?

All that being said, if I ever had a boat with a furling main I think I would prefer an in-boom furler. That way, if the furler jams, you've still got gravity to drop the sail. You can also have battens -- even full battens -- in the sail, which you can't in a vertical furler. In-boom furlers are growing in popularity and dropping in price. It looks to me as though the smallest boat you can get one for is the C30.

Brooke

Edited by - Brooke Willson on 04/04/2006 07:20:57

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