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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Loose foot main advice

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AADIVER
Admiral

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USA
966 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/14/2006 : 14:29:14

From SailNet:

Loose-Footed Mainsails

"Can you give me any guidance regarding the difference in sailing with a loose footed main and one with slides or a bolt rope? I sail a Sonata 26 and I've ordered a new main that the sailmaker is constructing as a loose-footed sail. Someone told me that it will be essential to strengthen the outhaul, and even use a dinghy mainsheet car on the boom because of the concentrated force at the outer end of the boom. What's the straight story?

SailNet responds:
Thanks for your question. Don't fret too much about making the transition from a bolt-rope or slugged-footed mainsail to a loose-footed one because all the kinks have pretty much been worked out and loose-footed mainsails are quite versatile these days.

Essentially, very little support is given to a mainsail by the bolt rope, so you're not losing anything by moving to a loose-footed sail. The loose-footed option gives you a lot more adjustability in sail shaping. And there's really no difference in the sail handling characteristics from one system to another. Also, you don't need a stronger outhaul, even though you'll often see sailmakers put a sliding car on the end of the boom with loose footed mainsails, that's just so that the loaded portion of the sail travels fore and aft more easily. Actually, what's become even more common is the use of strong webbing to strap the clew to the boom. The webbing keeps the clew low enough, but still allows it to slide forward and aft when the outhaul is used. We personally feel that loose-footed sails are easier to trim because of the improved adjustability."

Conventional wisdom says "You can't teach an old dog new tricks". Well, at age 73 I be an old-er dog who up to now has doubted the advice of switching from my tight footed 250 factory delivered main to a loose foot. I'm now convinced and shall unbolt my main and reattach at foot and clew. But would someone explain this: "...the use of strong webbing to strap the clew to the boom..." Thanks.

Frank Farmer
Long Beach, CA
aa.diver@verizon.net
http://mysite.verizon.net/aa.diver

PRETTY PENNY
'01 C-250 WK, Hull #558

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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6855 Posts

Response Posted - 04/14/2006 : 14:46:00

The foot of the sail has two remaining attachment points. The Tack and the clew. The foot is loose as the name indicates. They mention webbing. I find that to be somewhat of a misnomer. The foot remains attached by way of either a slide car that remains in the track as was mentioned in your post or in most cases a very heavy duty Velcro strap that keeps the main clew attached to the boom. You can see this in some of the congressional cup pictures on that website.

I am not 100% certain you can pull the foot out of your boom and still keep the clew in place without recutting it. Since you are out on the coast there are multitudes of sail lofts, while it is their busy season, you still might find somebody who can give you some advice with examples to show you. Try to get the main guy at the loft. Gary at the Ullman loft has been very receptive to our group in general and might be a good person to start with.

dw

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5902 Posts

Response Posted - 04/14/2006 : 15:14:11

I think you should strengthen the outhaul if you use a loose-footed mainsail, not because the loose-footed mainsail increases the stress on the mechanism, or that it might break, but because it'll be more functional.

The outhaul tensioning device on most boats only consists of a line attached to the clew of the sail, and then led to a small block or sheave at the end of the boom, and then led forward to a cleat, where it is tied off. That doesn't provide enough mechanical advantage to let you adjust the outhaul easily when it's under load. I added a couple of parts to the system, to increase the mechanical advantage, and that made it much easier to adjust the outhaul while underway.

The biggest advantage of a loose-footed mainsail is the ability to adjust it's shape. If you're going to use one, you should also make the device that you use to adjust it's tension more powerful, so you can get the most benefit out of it.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 04/14/2006 15:16:35

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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1709 Posts

Response Posted - 04/14/2006 : 16:27:05

When I bought my North loose-footed main two years ago I also installed a 4-part internal outhaul available from CD. The outhaul is part wire and part rope and works very well once I got the kinks worked out. The only installaton problem was that the wire rope was to long and had to be cut and swaged. I also had a problem with the bloks hanging up on ss screws inside the boom. I solved the problem by shortening the culprit screws and reinstalling them. It's one of five rigging mods - rigged (?) vang, double reef points, internal outhaul, Sheafer roller furling, rope clutches, all of which I am very satisfied with.

Edited by - aeckhart on 04/14/2006 16:28:30

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 04/14/2006 : 18:07:06

Steve, your right on the mark... the 250 has only a 2:1 outhaul. I doubled mine last winter and haven't been sailing with it yet to test. The local lake has been unusable for two seasons and last summer two attempted cruises had to be aborted because of family health concerns(mother in law) and work.

If the 4:1 doesn't work easily, the answer could be a double ended outhaul with a 2:1 for light air and 8:1 for heavy air. I'm concerned that an 8:1 might be difficult to use in light air... as often the outhaul tension is jockied a bit to see what looks best... and I doubt light air would draw out an 8:1, might not even the 4:1.

This might sound complicated but would actually be easy to do with the internal outhaul of the 250. The 250 outhaul line after rounding a sheave drawing the outhaul wire in the boom dead ends to an internal pin. Bringing it out to a cleat would leave that end a 2:1 while the original line can have additional cascading added.

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 04/14/2006 : 18:22:41

[url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=5910&SearchTerms=sew"]Making Antares loose-footed[/url]

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AADIVER
Admiral

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USA
966 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2006 : 00:35:42

I assume outhaul adjustments are mainly for fine tuning in racing. For routine cruising, is it possible for me to simply remove my 250 main from the boom bolt slot and reattach at clew and tack, or must a clew ajustment be done by a sailmaker, i.e. North or Ullman?

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5902 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2006 : 09:57:17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by FARMHAND
 I assume outhaul adjustments are mainly for fine tuning in racing.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">When you drive your car, you maintain it and drive it so that it works well mechanically, so that you don't prematurely wear out the tires, brakes, transmission and other parts, and so it gets good mileage. Auto racers do all those things because it helps them win races, but we all do those things, just because it makes the car perform better, and it just makes sense. If you let the functioning of your brakes degrade so that they lose a little of their stopping power, eventually you'll find yourself in a situation where you'll need all the stopping power you can get, to avoid an accident.

The same is true of a boat. Regardless of whether you're a racer or a cruiser, it just makes sense to maintain the underwater surfaces so that they're reasonably smooth and clean and fast, and it makes sense to trim the sails so that the boat can point high and foot fast. As a sailboat's speed increases, it's ability to sail close to the wind increases. Whether you're a racer or a cruiser, eventually, you'll get caught in bad weather or challenging conditions, and you'll need to be able to point as high as possible, to keep her off a lee shore. A sailor who knows how to generate maximum boatspeed, keep the boat on it's feet and make it point high, can sail himself out of trouble more readily than a sailor who doesn't know those things.

Easing the outhaul tension in light air or when sailing off the wind makes the mainsail more powerful, and increases boat speed. Increasing outhaul tension in stronger winds, reduces heeling, increases boatspeed to windward, and increases the boat's ability to point. To me, those are significant effects, and they're more than what we should consider fine tuning for racers, because that suggests that they don't matter very much.

If you don't intend to adjust your outhaul tension, then I would suggest you leave the foot of the mainsail attached, because, on average, the sail will probably have a better shape. If you decide to use it un-attached, then you should make a practice of adjusting it with almost every major change in the boat's direction relative to the wind, and every major change in windspeed.

The whole point of a loose-footed mainsail is to enable you to adjust the shape of the sail. If you're not going to adjust it's shape, there's no reason to fly it loose-footed. On the contrary, in that case the boat will probably perform better if the foot of the sail is attached to the boom, because that attachment will help hold the sail in a shape that will work better over a wider range of conditions. A lot of people do it that way. It's just a matter of "whatever floats your boat."

Edited by - on

johnsonp
Admiral

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606 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2006 : 10:15:03

Steve
What a top drawer neutral response.

paulj C250 WK #719

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Brooke Willson
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Response Posted - 04/15/2006 : 11:34:21

I agree -- Steve's analysis is excellent. As a cruiser, I don't change the outhaul with every change in direction, but I've found it enormously helpful to ease the foot on low-wind days to get better lift, and to trim it when the wind kicks up to reduce lift. Even we cruisers want to move as quickly through the water as we can, given the conditions.

Frank, my loose-footed main has a slider at the clew that stays in the slot, somewhat like the slides on the mainsail. I guess you could just attach the clew eye to the outhaul, but my slider holds the foot an inch or so above the boom, and anchors it there.

Brooke

Edited by - Brooke Willson on 04/15/2006 20:07:00

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2006 : 12:07:22

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 [Redacted due to length.]<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Exceptionally well said, Steve!

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Champipple
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6855 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2006 : 20:11:03

DITTO

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AADIVER
Admiral

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966 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2006 : 22:51:24

Arlyn answered my basic question: can I re-rig the main for a loose foot myself or does the sail require a clew adjustment by a sail loft? He assures me I can do it myself. So....is this the "proper" procedure:
1. remove the mainsail from the mast track
2. unpin the boom from the gooseneck
3. pull the sail completely out of the boom track
4. re-insert the clew slug and reconnect the outhaul to the clew cringle
5. pull the outhaul and the clew to the end of the boom
6. re-attach the boom to the goosneck
7. thread the luff slugs back into the mast track and replace the slug stop
8. go sailing in light air and ease the outhaul. Then tighten it to experience the difference.
9. report the results

Geez, you guys, I shoulda kept my big yap shut

Edited by - on

Bubba
Admiral

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USA
542 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2006 : 19:49:49

Frank, that's about it - but you shouldn't have to remove the boom.

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Ericson33
Admiral

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USA
892 Posts

Response Posted - 04/17/2006 : 00:22:39

This is what I do when I am trimming the main. By no means am I a great sailor, I just like to pull on the lines.

Wind 0-5 No outhaul Traveler is to weather 3/4 and the main is sheeted to keep the teltails on the roach flying back off the sail. All you need to do at this point is to bring in the main sheet untill the tell tails fly then cleat. No boomvang, No cunningham, hand tight main halyard. If you have a leach line you can pull this on hard to make the leach of the sail more of a cupped shape.

Wind 5-10 1 to 2 inches of outhaul. Traveler is above the centerline by 6 inches, Main sheet is brought in so the main sail draft is about 30 to 40 percent, The top batten teltale should be stalling about 80%. No boomvang, Cunningham just on, Main halyard Tighten 1"

Wind 10-15 2 to 3 inches of outhaul (you will be starting to flatten the bottom of the sail, and moving the draft father back.
at this point I start to sheet the main a little harder, and try to keep the boom on center line, and the top batten at the center of the boom, I start to play the traveler down in puffs to keep the boat from healing. Top batten teltals should be stalled. If I want to pinch to weather to point higher, I move the travler up, or I twist the top of the main sail at the top batten to weather. Just enough to pinch on the fleet or the mark, Of this is done too long you will start to loose speed. You can feather but you have to keep your speed up. Tighten the boomvang, Tighten the halyard now with the winch to take any scallops out of the Luff, and tighten the cunningham hand tight.

Wind 15 to 20 Outhaul tight, I now sheet the main hard and twist the top part of the main off so that the draft runs flat off of the main, the traveler is now a little down from center, and we still play the puffs with the travler.Boomvang still on, main halyard should be set by the range above, now tighten the cunningham to pull the sail flat.

Wind 20-25 This range on our boat is about the limit of keeping the boat flat, and not sliding sidways to weather. The main is now let out with the sheet to totally depower the sail, and the traveler is 3/4 of the way off of center. Main sheet is played in the puffs and all I am trying to do is keep the boat flat as possible, and point to the layline. Boomvang Hard, Cunningham hard, Halyard Hard. If you have leach lines, and foot lines make sure they are off.

Wind 25-30 This is where the first reef in the main sail would be nice to have. (we dont have one) so the flattening reef is used. At this point I just sail under main alone, feather into the wind going to windward, and enjoy the downwind sleigh ride home.

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