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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Flattening reef

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crcalhoon
Captain

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USA
303 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/15/2006 : 20:48:45

O.K. guys, dump on me. I just got my "racing main" back from Sailcare and ran it up today for exam and so forth. Now, I have never been in a sailboat race in my life and have never had any "racing gear" on any boat. However, this is a small lake and I am thinking that I may get involved in the local races next season. Looking at this sail, I find two extra cringles up about 6-8 inches from the foot of the sail, one fore and one aft. If there were only the forward one, I would just consider it for the Cunningham and let it go, but since there are two at the same height, it seems to me that they should be used in conjunction. I have heard of a "flattening reef" but am uncertain about it beyond the obvious idea that is used for flattening the sail, de-powering it. So, the questions: are these cringles a part of the flattening reef system. If so, how should they be rigged on the boom, similar to a conventional reef, just a couple of straps or pennants, or what. Am I correct in assuming that the forward one doubles as Cunningham?

I should note that the PO is not knowledgeable, and the PPO and PPPO are unavailable. I find two very small cleats, about 3 inches,one on either side or the mast. They are angled forward pretty severely, and it strikes me that they might have been intended for use with the Cunningham and the flattening reef, but I'm not sure.

It makes you think, every time you add a piece of hardware, "what is some future owner going to think that I was doing?" For that matter, what do I think that I am doing.

Thanks in advance for the help and advice. It ain't easy being old and ignorant.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2006 : 21:17:05

I'm going to bet dollars to donuts that the aft cringle is for the flattening reef. The forward cringle is for the cunningham. Steve Milby is the flattening reef advocate and expert, I'm not completely sold on them, but they seem to be rather effective. I am pretty certain that a flattening reef is a one ended deal though i.e. aft end of the sail only.

The cleats on your mast could mean somthing, then again they might not. Take a peak at the parts catalog diagrams via the link at the top left of this page. They might help you sort out all that hardware.

dw

Edited by - on

Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1913 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2006 : 21:25:31

Yep... the aft cringle sounds like the Flattening Reef. I have one, its about a foot up. I use just a piece of line through the cringle and around the boom, pull it tight and tie it off on a cleat on the aft end of the boom. It works independently of the Cunningham.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2006 : 00:08:20

independent of the Cuningham, no matter what others say. If you use it with the cuningham it could be a baby reef but it is not what it was designed for. Flattening reefs should only be on boats with shelf foots, they pull out the shelf foot.

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djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1561 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2006 : 06:36:04

Hi Frank, I was doing fairly well understanding this thread with my limited sailing vocabulary until you got to "Shelf Foots" what are those? Cheers.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2006 : 07:43:42

As the others have said, the aft cringle is the flattening reef. The forward cringle is the cunningham.

A flattening reef is normally used in conjunction with a mainsail with a racing shelf foot. The shelf foot is an extra deep pocket along the foot of the sail. When you're in light air or sailing off the wind, the sail has a long, deep curve that generates more power. But, when you want to sail to windward in moderate or stronger air, the wind can't remain attached to such a deep curve, and it separates from the sail. In that case, you can pull in the flattening reef, and flatten that curve, so that the airflow across it will remain attached in higher windspeeds.

The way I used mine was to sail without the reef and with all sail shaping controls relaxed when sailing off the wind, and when sailing to windward until the boatspeed reached about 3-4 kts. At that point, I started to gradually increase the tension on the mainsail outhaul, which took some of the curve out of the sail. Each time the windspeed increased about 1 1/2 kts., I increased the tension on the outhaul a little more. There comes a time, however, when the wind is blowing so hard that it stretches the dacron fabric of the sail, and makes the pocket too deep, and the outhaul is no longer able to flatten it as much as you need. At that point, you should pull in the flattening reef. In other words, the mainsail outhaul can flatten the sail adequately in lighter air, but in stronger winds, you need to use the flattening reef to keep it flat.

The procedure for taking in the flattening reef is to release the mainsheet and boom vang to take the pressure off the sail, and pull the reefing line, so that the boom end is pulled up to the flattening reef cringle. You can take it in and shake it out very quickly.

When you have both a flattening reef and a cunningham, they give you useful options. You can use the flattening reef and cunningham separately for their normal purposes, or you can use them together as a short reef. I can't count the number of times I've been racing, and the boat was slightly overpowered, and I felt I needed to reduce mainsail area a little to keep her fast, but was afraid that the first full reef was too much. If you use the flattening reef and cunningham together as a short reef, you don't lose much sail area, but you reduce it just enough to settle the boat down, and you flatten the sail to the max.

By the way, if your mainsail has such a deep shelf-like pocket that it looks like the ship's cat could take a nap in it, then your sail has a racing shelf foot. If it's obvious that the cat would just roll right off of the sail, then it's an ordinary mainsail without a racing shelf foot. Sometimes people with a tall rig have a cringle for a flattening reef installed on an ordinary mainsail, not for the above purposes, but to raise the boom a little, so they can install a bimini under it.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 04/16/2006 07:55:26

djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1561 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2006 : 08:19:51

Thanks Steve, your explaination helps a lot. Cheers.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2006 : 09:21:37

I have the North shelf footed racing main with these cringles. I use them often as a mini-reef. Taking the shelf out and pulling these tight, I can really flatten the main so much it is like a sheet of paper. Also making the main just a little smaller. I find it will take a boat that is heeling to 40 degrees and bring her back to 20.

I do have mine roped independantly, I'll try Steve's combination of outhaul/flattening. I guess that's what I usually do because when I start pulling on the flattening line I'm usually at full outhaul already.

By the way, Steve, what do you think of the idea of running my sail loose footed? I tried it, it is far easier to outhaul, but it seemed to be that the shelf foot was wasted as that part of the sail dropped below the boom. It seemed to be hard to work the shelf up into the draft of the sail when running loose. What do you think? The outaul end of the main is strong enough to loose foot without problem (the quality of the North sails is impressive).

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2006 : 10:56:24

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimB517
 I have the North shelf footed racing main with these cringles... [W]hat do you think of the idea of running my sail loose footed?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I would continue to use it attached. I have no doubt that the loose-footed mainsail represents a great advancement over a standard, original equipment mainsail, but I'm not convinced that the loose-footed mainsail represents a significant improvement over a racing mainsail with an attached shelf foot, like yours. I've raced against many boats with loose-footed mains, and haven't seen anything that leads me to believe that they are one iota faster on a boat the size of a C25.

Most people think of a C25 as being more of a cruiser than a racer. During the past 30 years, very few people have used mainsails with a racing shelf foot on a C25. Most C25 owners didn't know such a sail existed. After using their old original equipment mainsail, they bought a new loose-footed main, and they immediately realized that they could adjust the loose-footed sail over a wide range, so that it could either have a deep pocket, or it could be flattened. They could see that the ability to adjust the shape of the sail over such a wide range enabled it to produce more power over the whole range of windspeeds. What they don't realize is that, the shape of a mainsail with an attached racing shelf foot can be adjusted as much as a loose-footed mainsail, at least on a boat the size of a C25.

What I'm saying is that both types of sails (loose-foot and racing shelf-foot) enable you to adjust the shape of your mainsail over a wide range of windspeeds. IMHO, both types of sail serve exactly the same purpose, and, if either type actually works better than the other, the difference is negligible on a boat the size of a C25. The shelf-footed main is designed to have an attached foot, and, because it droops over the boom and "wastes" part of the fabric in the foot of the sail if you use it unattached, I think you're better off to use it attached.

If you have an original equipment mainsail with a standard foot, I suspect you'd be better off to fly it loose-footed, because you would greatly increase the range of adjustability of it, and it wouldn't have that extra fabric in the foot of the sail that would cause it to droop excessively over the boom.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 04/16/2006 11:01:31

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2006 : 21:22:34

Ironic, just today I needed the whole setup! It was VERY windy down at Mission Bay (we had those strong post-frontal-passage winds). I'd say 15 gusting to 20, maybe more. Anyways, I was bashing into 4 foot wind waves, taking spray all the way back to the cockpit, and I was still in the slip!!!!

(not really)

The boat was heeling to 45 degrees and fighting round ups with my 110 on, traveller down, and full outhaul. I put in my flattening reef and enjoyed the rest of the day sailing, never heeled over 30, plus brought traveller back up.

I was thinking of taking some photos for you, the flat main sail was a thing of beauty. My main is old but I can still shape it when I need to.

I sailed a couple of tacks to work about 5 miles to windward. It just seemed to be getting stronger, plus the seas were really messy. So I gybed for home. I never bothered to shake the flattening reef out - I was making 6.5 knots and getting partly broached by breaking whitecaps.

Tons of fun.

Good dry run for the race, nothing broke and nothing tumbled around inside (all most all food and drink is now stored).

Edited by - on

crcalhoon
Captain

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USA
303 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2006 : 21:44:23

Lordy, I do love this website and this association. Thanks Steve, I ain't saying I understand it all, but I have a lot better grasp on it. Your description fits the sail, the ship's cat could definitely nap on the shelf. I call this the racing main because I have the original order form to North Sails, New Orleans, and they refer to it as a racing main. It has the shelf foot, the two cringles, one row of reefing points. It was in pretty rough shape, but Sailcare seems to have done a nice job on it for a lot less than a new one, If I can get a few years out of it I'll be happy.

For info, I am not new to sailing, but have been out of it for about 14 years. So have forgotten more than I knew. And I never knew racing. This sail has a single row of reefing points, which will be sufficient on this little inland lake I'm on. That row is rigged in the conventional manner, dead ended on port side of boom, through reefing cringle, down to block, forward on the boom to cleat. This is exactly the same method that I have had on three other boats, so I am familiar with it. Now to the flattening reef. I seems that the likely thing would be a similar rig, but that could clutter the boom up pretty thoroughly. What would your recommendation be for rigging the flattening reef? I can see tying it down with a pennant, but that wouldn't give any pull aft. On the other hand, if I am satisfied with a single row of reefing points on this sail then I guess it wouldn't hurt to put one more setup on the boom. Now that I think of it, my last boat had three sets of reefing lines on the boom and it wasn't a problem. Maybe the dummy here just answered his own question.

I hate it when that happens.

For your info, I am printing out your response. Now if I can just balance it on my leg, under sail, tiller under knee. . .

Edited by - on

crcalhoon
Captain

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USA
303 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2006 : 21:48:23

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2006 : 22:06:28

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by crcalhoon
 What would your recommendation be for rigging the flattening reef?...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

From the C25 Tech Tips...

[url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/tech/tech25/sdflatreef.asp"]Flattening Reef by Bill Holcomb[/url]

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 04/17/2006 : 06:52:11

A neat way to rig multiple rows of reef points is to mount a 2-3' piece of track on the starboard side of the boom. Then put a sliding cheek block with a becket on the track for each row of reef points. Each block can be positioned so that it pulls at just the right angle for the reef point that it serves. It gets expensive to add the track and 2-3 cheek blocks, but, if you want to reduce the amount of hardware necessary, you can use only one cheek block, and reposition it for each reef point. If you do that, you can use one reef line for all the aft cringles. It can be attached to the cringle with a reef hook that can be moved from one reef cringle to another. That works on an inland lake, but I'm not sure I'd want to do it that way on coastal waters, because it'd be better to have all the reef points rigged so they can be used without re-connecting things in high winds and choppy seas.

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