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Another Racing Right-of-Way situation

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bbriner
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Initially Posted - 05/20/2006 : 12:27:42

Ok, here's the situation.. Boat A (my 'adversary') and I are both on a run. We are both on starboard tacks. Boat A is slightly ahead of me off my starboard bow and we are on parallel courses. We are coming up to a breakwater which is in front of both of us, and the clear water is to our starboard, so we both have to head up slightly to make it (this is the finish line actually). Now, I have now caught up to Boat A and my bow overlaps his stern and we are getting dangerously close to the breakwater. He's squeezing me so I call for inside rights so I can make it. He appears to be upset but he does head up. Afterwords (at the bar) he and his crew indicate that they think that I should have given him room, I think they think this because they say they were downwind of me . My understanding was that since we were on the same tack *I* was actually downwind of *him*, but in any event, I called for inside rights since we were overlapped and coming up on an obstruction. We were overlapped long before the 2 boat length zone, and the overlap was never broken.

I admit that I was hoping to pass him before we got this point, but the plan was that even if I couldn't, my belief was that I'd be able to go inside him to get around the jetty. I really didn't think I was being too aggressive here but the problem was that he didn't cooperate!! The only thing I could have done to avoid him had he *not* given me room would have been a radical gybe and then head upwind and tack around to avoid the rocks (about a 340 degree turn). Thankfully he (reluctantly) did give way.

I will submit my case to the experts. Please advise!

Bill B
Wind Dancer
#4036 84 SR/FK
San Francisco Bay

Edited by - on

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 05/20/2006 : 13:43:51

I am the last person to know anything about racing rules but...since no one has commented yet and rather than just twiddle my thumbs waiting to see who has the answer....from your explanation it sounds like you are closing in on him but in so doing and on same tacks you are robbing him a bit of his wind. Is that okay or is there a rule indicating you cannot do that.

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Champipple
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Response Posted - 05/20/2006 : 16:08:30

The rule about a continuing obstruction is somewhat clear. 18.5 Without a diagram, it is tough to discern if this meets the definition of Continuing, however in most cases breakwalls are considered to be a continuing obstruction.

If at the point you obtained overlap you did not have room to pass between the breakwater and the other boat, you are in the wrong. This is tough to prove and if the other skipper says he kept the door closed the entire time and you weaseled in then without a witness you would lose the protest. And every guy on his boat are going to testify the only way through would have been with contact.

Since you weren't running completely with the breakwater, but at it with an opening in sight, then it might not be considered a continuing obstruction. You as the inside boat would be entitled room provided you obtained overlap prior to two boat lengths and maintained it to the two boatlength zone from the rocks.

Again without a diagram (and you'd have to draw one on the protest and probably use the little models in the protest room) it is tough to discern. Check out Rule 18C all sections. Read everything once or twice because many of the sub sections turn on or off different parts of the rule.

As a side note, In the old days in similar circumstances, guys used to yell a number at the guy, 47 B for example. (47B says you have to give me 3 boatlengths at the rocks) The other skippers never know the rule book front to back so they would always give room. Somewhere in the 2005-2008 RRS this is no longer allowed. (if you are wrong or BSing you could be protested.)

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bbriner
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Response Posted - 05/23/2006 : 11:48:54

Duane
I will add a diagram so that it is clearer. I just need to find some time to create the diagram.

Rule 18.5 is not exactly clear to me: " A boat clear astern that obtains an inside overlap is entitled to room to pass between the other boat and the obstruction only if at the moment the overlap begins there is room to do so. "

At the time our overlap was established **both** of us had to head up in order to clear the breakwater, so in reality there wasn't room for either one of us. The situation became a little more dire when the outside boat did not head up enough to give us room; they were 'cutting the corner'.

I'm not looking for exoneration, just clarification. Thanks..

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 05/23/2006 : 14:32:26

I'm not the expert, but the rule and your account read pretty clearly to me that you did not have that room before the overlap. I.e., you have to be going for an opening that already exists, and he can't take it away from you by changing course to pinch you out, but you can't force him to change course to create an opening that didn't already exist.

Now, I'm curious... Why didn't you, before achieving overlap, head up to starbord a little and try to overtake him to windward, where you indicate there was plenty of room, where you could have fouled his air, and where you might have picked up some speed by sailing higher? Was the line further away toward the windward end?

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 05/23/2006 14:34:28

Champipple
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Response Posted - 05/23/2006 : 16:22:08

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 I'm not the expert, but the rule and your account read pretty
Now, I'm curious... Why didn't you, before achieving overlap, head up to starbord a little and try to overtake him to windward, where you indicate there was plenty of room, where you could have fouled his air, and where you might have picked up some speed by sailing higher? Was the line further away toward the windward end?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You go to windward you lose all rights - the maneuver you describe is very plausible, in fact I've been on boats that have done it. However if he is guarding his back pocket, he takes you up and can take you to china before coming back down around the wall.

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Gary B.
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Response Posted - 05/23/2006 : 19:31:41

So once you have the overlap and become the leeward boat, why is it you couldn't then come up and take HIM "all the way to China"? Not sure I see why it would be a disadvantage to be windward in one scenario and not the other.......

Again, without a diagram, I am maybe not "seeing" this right, but your answer about why you didn't go under him would seem to prove that YOU had rights as the leeward boat.

Gary B.
s/v Encore! #685 SK/SR

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Champipple
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Response Posted - 05/23/2006 : 19:37:37

You can, however with an obstruction, your rights to obtain the overlap become limited, especially a continuing obstruction. If the overlap is legitmately obtained, then you can take him up. If the opening in the breakwater is only x wide, then you might have to still give him room too.

I am envisioning a particular breakwall scenario based on local occurences so I may be way off the mark. Really need a diagram.

dw

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Dave Bristle
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Response Posted - 05/23/2006 : 22:32:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Duane Wolff
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 I'm not the expert, but the rule and your account read pretty
Now, I'm curious... Why didn't you, before achieving overlap, head up to starbord a little and try to overtake him to windward, where you indicate there was plenty of room, where you could have fouled his air, and where you might have picked up some speed by sailing higher? Was the line further away toward the windward end?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You go to windward you lose all rights - the maneuver you describe is very plausible, in fact I've been on boats that have done it. However if he is guarding his back pocket, he takes you up and can take you to china before coming back down around the wall.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If it were strictly a match race, I'd agree. Fleet race--not likely (unless you're racing for next-to-last place).

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Champipple
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Response Posted - 05/24/2006 : 05:27:54

Actually Dave, it is very likely. From what I can tell this is near the end of the race. In a fleet race by this point, especially PHRF, even if you are racing for first and second, you very probably are going to be the only boats around. Remember its not like nascar - not everybody goes the same way and the wind isn't the same throughout the entire course, nor are the boats.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 05/24/2006 : 07:54:15

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Duane Wolff
 In a fleet race by this point, especially PHRF, even if you are racing for first and second, you very probably are going to be the only boats around.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
...but especially in a PHRF race, why would one boat waste time taking another boat "to China" rather than getting across the line in the least amount of time? I guess if you've figured out exactly how you and a the other boats are going to correct...

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 05/24/2006 07:58:28

Champipple
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Response Posted - 05/24/2006 : 09:43:12

It isn't so much as taking the guy to town or being taken to town as much as it is you are at the mercy of his actions.

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Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 05/24/2006 : 16:11:12

Bill, if I understand correctly, you are approaching a solid obstruction which lies perpendicular to your course. If the end of that obstruction is one end of the finish line it is a mark of the course as well as an obstruction (same as the RC boat). If so, and you have an inside overlap before you get within 2 boat lengths of the breakwater you are entitled to room and the other boat must give it to you.
Derek

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bbriner
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Response Posted - 05/24/2006 : 19:13:07

Ok here's a diagram that I hope explains the situation. I didn't mention the first breakwater in my original post because I didn't think it was relevant, but given some of the questions it helps explain why I didn't head up behind him. Also, I *thought* I had inside rights so I used this tactic to try to pass him. We had worked sooooo hard to catch up to him we really wanted to pass!

Edited by - bbriner on 05/24/2006 19:15:45

Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 05/24/2006 : 19:18:42

Bill - he has to give you room - you just call "room at the mark"
Derek

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Dave Bristle
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Response Posted - 05/24/2006 : 21:34:12

I think this gets a little trickier than "room at the mark". Breakwaters generally aren't like racing marks--they usually have rip-rap that makes them more like a rocky shore-line. One man's "room" could be another man's very hard grounding. If the RC uses that course configuration very often, the issue should be very common. That finish is an obstacle course!

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Champipple
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Response Posted - 05/25/2006 : 07:32:06

Derek is correct Dave - it is a mark. Depending on the course, if that first breakwater (we call them break walls around here) must have been rounded on that particular side, it too is a mark. In exact terms, the rule book makes no distinction between needing room to round/fetch marks or obstructions, they are defined the same. Continuing obstructions are the only thing that have a different definition. (see below for this)

The answer here is pretty simple now that there is a diagram. The first breakwall is at a minimum an obstruction, the second is mark and an obstruction. It appears from your diagram that there was overlap the entire way.

Per Judges Casebook, Case 33 – summation: While the breakwater is a continuous structure from the shore to its outer end, it does not qualify as acontinuing obstruction since the boats are concerned only with the outer end. Therefore, rule 18.5 does not apply.

This specifically means we are dealing with Rule 18.2 A

Regardless of whether I’m over analyzing position one in your diagram, overlap was definitely obtained prior to and during the entry into the two boat length zone from the second breakwater. The first breakwater, you were obligated to give him room regardless of your position of being leeward because he needed such room to pass the obstruction as the inside boat.

At the second breakwater, because you had overlap going into the 2 boat length zone he must give you room to head up and clear the mark. (Note: Had overlap not been obtained entering the 2 boat length zone from the mark, your leeward rights would not have applied at the mark) Case 9, among many others notes that there is no obligation to sail a proper course. Therefore, you can take him to China and beyond up until he calls for room to gybe at or near the Club to avoid the next obstruction.

You were in the right.

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Dave Bristle
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Response Posted - 05/25/2006 : 09:22:19

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Duane Wolff
 Derek is correct Dave - it is a mark. Depending on the course, if that first breakwater (we call them break walls around here) must have been rounded on that particular side, it too is a mark. In exact terms, the rule book makes no distinction between needing room to round/fetch marks or obstructions, they are defined the same. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I guess I didn't state my point correctly... The reason I said a breakwater is "not like a racing mark" is that having a foot more than the beam of your boat to get through is a bit dicey. How much room is room around submerged rocks? Anything can be a mark, but "room at the rocks" is hard to define, and touching that mark could exact an overly severe penalty. So what is "room at the mark" in that case? (I'm showing my limited experience racing round plastic markers with boats and marks only inches apart and lots of yelling going on...)

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 05/25/2006 09:30:04

Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 05/25/2006 : 10:04:58

"Anything can be a mark, but "room at the rocks" is hard to define, and touching that mark could exact an overly severe penalty. So what is "room at the mark" in that case?"
Not quite so, Dave.
A mark is basically defined as an object that the racers must pass or round on one side. If the inside boat is not given enough room and hits the submerged rocks then the outside boat is at fault for not giving sufficient room (probably small consolation...) Presumably the racers there know how much clearance the breakwater needs and should ensure that the inside boat has plenty of room.
Derek

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Dave Bristle
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Response Posted - 05/25/2006 : 18:26:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
[brPresumably the racers there know how much clearance the breakwater needs and should ensure that the inside boat has plenty of room.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Hmmm... Me thinks you haven't raced against the Wall Street stock brokers, investment bankers, and commodity traders in Fairfield County, CT...

You'd never set up a course with rocks and contrete for marks in that environment! I've only been crew, but it's "interesting."

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 05/25/2006 18:28:20

Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 05/25/2006 : 21:23:25

Then fly your protest flag Dave and get the idiots DSQ'd. After a few of those even hot shot Wall St. types will get the message!
Derek

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bbriner
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Response Posted - 05/25/2006 : 21:28:41

Thanks everyone for your help. The course we sail on Friday Night Beer Can Races may be different but the course *always* finishes at the same place. Most of us go through the opening shown on the diagram but of course there is one (the south entrance) on the other end too, but since we are usually going downwind, most everyone goes through this same entrance.

As for room at the 'mark' at the end of the breakwater or break wall, the room (depth actually) varies with the tide and the boat and so it is somewhat imprecise. My diagram is a bit generous in that regard. Believe me, I had **no** room.

I take solace in Duane's comments. I did understand him to have inside rights at the first wall and gave him room. He drove down and I couldn't do anything else really (except a 340). Now, because he believes otherwise he's 'called us out' (in a friendly way) for tomorrow night. I'll let you know how it goes :))

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Buzz Maring
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Response Posted - 05/25/2006 : 21:44:55

... Now, because he believes otherwise he's 'called us out' (in a friendly way) for tomorrow night. I'll let you know how it goes :))

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill B
Wind Dancer
#4036 84 SR/FK

Give him a spanking, Bill ... we're rooting for you ... good luck!

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bbriner
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Response Posted - 05/27/2006 : 09:19:07

I'm not sure that it was a spanking but we did beat him. He came in dead last last and we were 6th. I don't know what the time difference was but we thought we were last. We didn't even know he was racing since I'm not even sure that we ever saw him even. So it was a bit anti-climatic. It was a wild night though; we were glad to finish without injury to boat or self. Winds were 25+ with stronger gusts. The upwind beat was truly a beat, and a wet one at that, fighting against waves that were easily 5' - it was the first time (on this boat) that I had waves breaking over my bow. Downwind we set a new PR - the GPS topped out at 10.9 kts (against max ebb)!! It was quite a ride.

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