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Right-of-Way vs Nice vs What would you do?

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ilnadi
Captain

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452 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/05/2006 : 23:43:24

First, this is not a big right-of-way question, more of an annoyance.

Being about the slowest boat out on the Neuse, we usually stay out of people's way. Out for a Sunday stroll with my brother-in-law (non-sailor) and my toddler, it was doubly a lazy stroll.

Anyway, coming back in, going broad-reach on starboard tack, I am headed into the channel. Since everybody is upwind of me and few boats on port tack, I figure I can stay the course and sail in. I am crossing the main entrance into Oriental, so I do not want to push anybody off-course (the entrance is a narrow dredged channel, pretty narrow for the deep-keel guys) so I am keeping an eye for boats aimed at the channel. A few boats on power cross in. The this guy starts catching up from behind, so I head up a bit in case he wants to cross into the channel but he does not. So far so good. I want to drop the main outside (it's all downwind into the marina at this point, I don't want to do a 180 inside the marina to drop the main so if the wind is blowing in we drop the main outside) and it requires luffing the main and I am being nice and don't want to "luff the guy to china". Anyway, in trying to slow down since he will not go anywhere but right on my tail, I finally jibe, thinking I can luff in peace. He jibes right on my tail, messes with his sails, jibes again and sails in. Now I am annoyed since I had to sail away from my marina with this guy on my tail. No big deal but it's a big river and there are a lot of places to mess with his sails than 20feet off my stern. We did sail almost to the slip so I was happy anyway. Plus my daughter got another 45 minutes of sailing (see below).

What would you do

Now while I was going the wrong way, something funny happened. The wind all but died and having turned up-current we stalled. Then the wind completely died, it was fun to watch 15+ boats dead-stopped watching each other to see who got wind. Anyway, we start drifting backwards with the current (~1.5knts) and it actually filled up the headsail. I thought the wind had shifted so tried to sail away until I noticed the GPS telling me we were going backwards. The wind eventually returned and everybody beat me in, including a dinghy. But what the hey, we got a few hours of sailing in as I had promised my daughter.

Nadi ex-C25
http://www.sailblogs.com/member/enka
http://building-spindrift11s.blogspot.com/

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3502 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2006 : 05:28:30

There are plenty of things that get me annoyed when in or near narrow channels with low waters on the sides. But it is hard to judge what is going thru others minds at the time. My thought is that the other boater was probably just following you in and was kind of joining up with you. It kind of reminds me what happens in large organized bike rides when people start pacing behind others who they do not even know. It's not necessarily welcomed but ...it happens and sometimes it is welcomed. I think in sailing it is a lot more annoying since it not someone you know and you really do not know their intentions. I guess we all have things that bug us. What bugs me is that i oftentimes have to deal with the multitudes of motorboats. many seem to know what is going on but there are others that are totally oblivious to the boaters around them. My latest pet peeve is when I am also on a broad reach and watching the depths, stay outside the channel by about 40 feet so as not to mess with the traffic, I then have one or two motorboats that can't help themselves but also move out of the channel and then speed by real close to me. This oftentimes occurs when no one is even close to them in the channel. Why the heck do they have to then veer outside of it and come close to me speeding by at high speeds ? What is their story ?

But my thought is that there so many knowledgeable and understanding boaters out there, that I am mostly left with favorable experiences/impressions ...but just have to keep an eye out for those other guys.

Edited by - on

bbriner
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349 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2006 : 08:44:49

If I read it right this other boater didn't really impede you in any way but made you uncomfortable that he was so close. He may have had the same idea as you in fact. I don't really get why you 'had to sail away from your marina with this guy on your tail' since it sounds like it was your intention to gibe and drop your main outside the marina. Now, a counterpoint... I don't know if there were obstructions anywhere or if there was plenty of room for both of you but, it sounds like you were the 'stand on' vessel and so are obligated to keep steering your course. The overtaking vessel has to keep clear of you but in gibing with him so close you might have been causing him to think bad thoughts of you. Your intentions were not that I know and I obviously don't know the whole situation. I'm often asking for right of way clarifications too so maybe someone else can help more.

PS - what really burns me are the sailboats under power thinking they are still sailboats!!

Edited by - on

ilnadi
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452 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2006 : 08:58:26

let's see. I gybed because normally I would have luffed without changing tack to drop the main but since he was aiming to winward of me it would have meant cutting him off. In any case "stand on" was not to my benefit and he was not going fast enough to pass me before my channel. So I gybed away from him to do my thing. My peeve was after I dropped the main he was still behind me so I ended up doing a 270 to get back on course. I consider this not a right of way but "doing things a bit differently to stay out of people's way". I mean if he wants to use his right of way to the limit in the middle of 10sqmiles of river that's fine. I figure I am free to be annoyed. I guess next time I'll stand on to the bitter end out of curiosity and see what happens.

Hey I was still out on a nice day, so can't get too worked up.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by bbriner
 If I read it right this other boater didn't really impede you in any way but made you uncomfortable that he was so close. ... it sounds like you were the 'stand on' vessel and so are obligated to keep steering your course.
PS - what really burns me are the sailboats under power thinking they are still sailboats!!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2006 : 09:02:34

I think I'm with Bill B on this...

With a vessel overtaking (and you're not constrained or racing) the best policy is to just hold your course and let the overtaking boat manage the pass. Pinching up and then jibing may have confused the situation.

The other vessel could also have just been intending to follow you in, which I guess they have every right to do. If they was too close for your comfort you could probably have asked for more room.

There's probably a lot of us who don't monitor our radios while daysailing, but you could also try contacting the other vessel on VHF channel 16, switch to 68 and discuss your intentions.

Edited by - ClamBeach on 06/06/2006 09:06:27

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 06/06/2006 : 09:51:55

Nadi, as I understand it, you were leaving an open water area, where you had plenty of room to maneuver, and you were about to enter the narrow entrance to your marina, where your room to maneuver would be very limited. As you approached, another boat overtook you from astern and began to "tailgate" you. If someone did that to me, I would also have been annoyed, because he limited your ability to maneuver in the narrowing channel, if a sudden problem arose. I don't care which boat was the stand-on vessel, or who had the right-of-way, his action was inconsiderate. He should have slowed his speed before he got to within 20 feet of your transom, and left both of you more time to react.

If the situation had come to that, you simply had to do whatever was neccesary for the safety of your vessel, and he had to do whatever was necessary for the safety of his vessel. If you had to alter course to avoid a collision with a right-of-way boat coming out the channel, and if that meant that he had to put his boat on the rocks to avoid hitting you, then, so be it. If he hadn't been tailgating you, he would have had more time and room to maneuver.

If I were in the same situation, I would probably do much the same as you. I'd signal him that I'm altering course, and then gybe out of his way and let him go by before I ran out of room to maneuver. The only thing I would suggest that you do differently is that you not wait until he's 20' from your transom before you gybe off. When you see him steadily overtaking you, you should make your decision on your action before he gets that close.

He probably didn't intend to annoy you or cause you problems. He probably misjudged the speed at which he was overtaking you. Any of us could have made the same mistake that he did, given the right conditions.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/06/2006 : 10:19:14

Was the tail-gater from your marina? He may have been taking your cue as to where he should drop sail, possibly he was new to the area and unsure as to how and where things are done in your area.
That said, tail-gating is always bad news.
And if you really want to learn how to deal with annoyance, come to my lake. I started writing about it Sunday night but stopped when I was getting too cranky at recalling all the nonsense from the weekend.
I mentioned to the marina owner that he should post a sign or two about 'wakes' and 'speeds'. He said he wouldn't because if he did, he'd have to enforce it, and he wasn't prepared or capable of enforcing any rules.
But the good news is, every Tuesday the police show up to check for drinking infractions.

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
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Response Posted - 06/06/2006 : 10:41:06

... But the good news is, every Tuesday the police show up to check for drinking infractions. -Stampeder/Mike

So the police figure people only drink too much on Tuesdays?

Edited by - on

ilnadi
Captain

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452 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2006 : 11:14:31

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Buzz Maring
 ... But the good news is, every Tuesday the police show up to check for drinking infractions. -Stampeder/Mike

So the police figure people only drink too much on Tuesdays?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
See Monday people are still feeling good from the weekend. Tuesday work starts to catch up so you need to "relax". This turned into a bigger thread than I intended, but I am eating lunch and hate working while I eat.

As far as I am concerned we were not in restricted waters yet. We were a hundred or more yards from the entrance to Oriental channel and half a mile from my entrance. BUT, it's shallow between the entrances (all soft mud) and at the rate he was passing me I would have had him to winward with the shallows to leeward. Now did I mention that my brother-in-law was not a sailor, so I was going to explain the whole main sail drop to him first and my daughter wanted to pee-pee right then

and he had to take her down below since I could not let him steer downwind in traffic without me in the cockpit and I had enough and gybed away. Now come to think of it, he did go into the same channel as me but there are three marinas plus private docks in there and I do not recognize most of the boats even in my marina.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">He probably didn't intend to annoy you or cause you problems.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Oh, I know he was not chasing me down and I am sure I paid it forward later sailing at 2.5-3knts into the marina when a 40-footer motoring in had to slow down rather than pass me

. I sailed as far over as I could but some days the crab pots blow into the channel and there is barely room for one boat.

Edited by - on

Ericson33
Admiral

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USA
892 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2006 : 12:55:55

Take it with a grain of salt, Racing we are always up on the transom of other boats taking their wind. The boat in front of us has the right of way untill overlap. It sounds like the other boat stayed clear, and was watching what you were doing (a good thing). When there is contact no one is really in the right, the last thing that I want to do is hit another boat.

I will give an example:
Race day, Long distance race, One boat on port, and one on starboard, boats are on a closing coarse, and Starboard yells, Again Starboard yells, Port can not hear or see Starboard, crue is on Port rail, and helmsman is on Port rail. Starboard boat T-Bones port boat, he had the time, and did not alter coarse. Both boaters are now cussing at one another, and Starboard boat sails off (No Protest) Port boat is holed and Retires race notifing R/C of intentions, but again (No Protest) Starboard boat sails off and is not seen again for 2 hours.

Back at dock Port boat ties up boat, waits for starboard boat to come in but is not seen, and goes home. Starboard boat comes in and docks, Bragging that he was on Starboard tack, and that Port boat is paying for damages.

Now the skippers are cussing and both pissed at each other, causing damage to the club as its known a fun and happy place. Board of club tell the skippers that this matter has to be taken care of off of club property, or members will be banned.

Insurance companies are called in for damage to the Port boat of a cost of over 6,000.00 Starboard boat is fixed with a little gelcoat 100.00 repair. Both members at the club are still angry at each other.

What I have learned from this:

If any contact is made, and damage is done to any boat, First ask if everyone on boats are OK. Protest, then retire from race. Call in lake patrol for a record of the accident for the insurance company. Go back to your marina and contact other owner and ask if they are OK. Go to Protest Hearing and let comitty figure out who is in the wrong. If its not a race contact the local Police, Lake patrol, or Coast Guard.

This did happen, and I am the NEW owner of the Port boat (Got a good discount:)
did the repair work myself, and race the boat every other weekend. I know both owners from the club, Port boat owner has been up to the club once in the last year to sail, It scared the crap out of him, his wife and crew. The Starboard boat owner is in the slip across from my new slip. He still comes up and braggs that he hit the boat, and he was on Starboard tack. I just sit back and smile.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2006 : 16:17:40

C.S.--"Starboard" is dead wrong. Tell him that before he makes a fool of himself for too much longer, he needs to read Article 27, which essentially says that regardless of all of the other stated rules, each vessel is required to do whatever is necessary to avoid collision. The stand-on/burdened rules should be followed to the greatest degree possible, but stand-on should not really be mistaken for "right of way." It means that, to avoid confusion, that boat should hold course while the other should choose an action to stay clear. This prevents the "fake right, fake left, CRUNCH" sequence. But when it gets down to the short strokes, if the stand-on boat does nothing to avoid the collision, he can be found to be at least partially at fault, and a court would likely make him cover some of Port's damage in that particular situation.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 06/07/2006 00:43:57

bbriner
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Response Posted - 06/06/2006 : 16:36:28

Nadi,
We all understand that things seem to happen all at once sometimes :) The additional information helps. You were being squeezed between him to windward and the shallows to leeward. You headed up to get more room and then gybed. When you gybed you moved out of his way since he was passing windward of you. No harm no foul. He should have known (assuming he sails there often) that you had a problem to port and given you more room, out of consideration. If he races then maybe he doesn't view it as a problem since racers enjoy each others close company;) and maybe doesn't realize the stress they are causing the skipper of the other boat. Anyway, He then luffed up behind you, which definitely sounds inconsiderate (and potentially dangerous), but he is now downwind of you and you are now the 'give way' vessel (I think), putting you in an uncomfortable position since you are luffing and have probably lost steerage. All in all I would say that he was pushing the limits but the technicalities may be otherwise. Net of it all.. no harm, no foul, even though he got a little close for comfort, especially when your hands were so full.

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