Association Forum - Rope Halyard Knot

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Rope Halyard Knot

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Page: of 2

danandlu
Navigator

Member Avatar

USA
175 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/15/2006 : 08:40:29

It has been a lot of work preparing. We finally sailed Chesapeake Sunday. What a great feeling sailing a Catalina 25! She handles great.

So here's my problem. The wire is kinked at the head on the present (original?) rope to wire jib halyard. It apparently had been wrapped around the forestay quite tightly at some time in the past. So much so that the foresail won't roll onto the Harken furler unless the tack is raised by a series of links thereby moving the kink into the mast. You can just see the links in the photo. I hope my terminology and description makes sense.

My questions are:
Is 5/16 the correct diameter line for this application?

Would 75' be enough to bring the halyard back to the cockpit? I don't want to try stretching too short a piece

.

What type knot should I used to attach the halyard to the furler head that attaches to the sail?

Thanks for the help.

Dan Henderson
1982 FK/TR #3328
"Chesapeake"
Missoula, Flathead Lake, Montana

Edited by - on

atgep
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

1009 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2006 : 08:47:06

Dan,
I have bee using 1/4 for the halyards and have been very pleased. 75' sounds about right. My jib halyard is short(55'). I do not mind as he jib stays on the furler. After it is up, the rest of the line is left to rot in the elements.

Nice boat BTW.

Tom.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

3072 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2006 : 09:12:45

I have 65' halyards... exactly the right length for a standard rig led back to the copckpit (cabintop).

Edited by - on

Lightnup
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1016 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2006 : 10:16:37

I purchased a 75' StaSet-X 5/16" halyard with a spliced end from Milwaukee rigging (on ebay) for $61.25 plus shipping. 75' is plenty of length for running it back to the cockpit. With the spliced end at the top of the furler, you don't have to worry about which knot to use.

Steve

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2006 : 11:52:10

Hi Dan... Why do you want to run the halyard back to the cockpit if you have a roller furler? You might want to use that hardware for something you'll actually want to adjust. I winch and then cleat mine on the mast and leave it alone all season. 5/16ths is fine, but the sheaves on your masthead are probably sized for the wire--you might need new ones. I don't know what 1/4" might do in those sheaves. Either way, get a high-tech low-stretch rope for that application, since you presumably want to leave it tensioned for an extended period.

Your wire halyard probably got wrapped on the furler swivel--something that can be avoided by adding a small block on the mast just low enough to keep the halyard away from the forestay. A P.O. added one on my boat, apparently after wrapping the halyard and even kinking the forestay in the process. Sorry I don't have a picture, but the installation instructions for your furler might show something like that. I'm sure the issue varies for different furler models.

Edited by - on

Lightnup
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1016 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2006 : 22:40:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 Hi Dan... Why do you want to run the halyard back to the cockpit if you have a roller furler? You might want to use that hardware for something you'll actually want to adjust. I winch and then cleat mine on the mast and leave it alone all season. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Oh crap! You're right Dave, with a furler, there is no reason to have that additional section of halyard running along the cabin top and taking up space coiled against the cockpit bulkhead. Why didn't you point out this little gem of logic before I bought 75' of halyard and 2 new sheaves for the portside deck organizer to run the jib halyard through? Arrgggh! (Thanks for bringing it up though.)

Steve

Edited by - Lightnup on 06/15/2006 22:41:59

DanM
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
256 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2006 : 05:53:13

You are not the only one, Steve. After deciding I didn't like the look of all that 75' jib halyard coiled at the mast last year, this spring I ran it back thru the organizer to the a rope clutch. A PO had installed matching deck hardware, so I figured - one for each halyard. But not necessary with a furler! Maybe the furler was added later.
On our maiden sail we needed to reef, and as I scrambled around on the deck uncoiling reefing line, I quickly recalled the better use of that hardware.

Oh! I prefer the bowline knot.

Edited by - DanM on 06/16/2006 06:01:22

Kip C
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
243 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2006 : 06:13:10

Even better use - Cruising spinnaker!

Edited by - Kip C on 06/16/2006 06:15:43

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2006 : 07:43:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Lightnup
 Oh crap! You're right Dave... Why didn't you point out this little gem of logic before I bought 75' of halyard and 2 new sheaves for the portside deck organizer to run the jib halyard through?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
...because you didn't ask.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 06/16/2006 07:44:26

danandlu
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
175 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2006 : 09:18:17

I appreciate all the help so far. I don't have much experience with rigging - like zero. I'm probably going about this "bass ackwards" but I don't want to drop the mast (I just got it up) to replace sheaves (I know, I know...) I plan to drop mast at the end of this season and do everything correct - replace all running and standing rigging then. I think I'll have a better idea of what I want and how to do it after a season of use. I've searched this forum and found some who have used existing sheaves with all rope with no problems. I could go with lesser length since the sail will be up anyway - good point.

The furler does work now, jury rigged as it is. I can sail, it's just I don't want the extra heeling from the sail being higher than necessary. My thinking was that I could replace the kinked wire with rope and that may solve the problem inexpensively. If not, I'll leave it as is and fix correctly during winter. I may even go back to hank-on's with downhaul if I find the furler to be too much trouble, there were 3 hank-on's on the boat.

Edited by - on

Ericson33
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
892 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2006 : 11:44:38

I am just joking around here but its called LINE on a sailboat not rope, rope is what you tie a horse up to a post with.

Or for your application the line is called a halyard.

Here is what i did to replace the wire on our San Juan 24. You can use a high tech halyard 1/4" to 5/16 and it should work fine in the wire sheaves. The smaller the line the better off you will be, you could also have the line spliced with a bigger cover on the end so you can get a good grip on the mast winch.

To replace the halyards, I took the wire all the way down to the deck, if your line isn't long enough tie a messenger line on the running end, and tape it secure, I even took a needle and some thread and sewed them together, then taped it up. After you run the halyard wire down to the deck level I cut the wire off of the end of the halyard, then took the end of the new halyard, sewed the ends together and ran the line backwards back up thru the masthead and out thru the base.

I ran it backwards because I had the halyard made up with a snap shackle on the end of the new halyard. There are a couple of steps extra you have to take like sewing the lines twice, but the last think I want to have to do is drop the mast and re-run a halyard.

Here is an update (quick fix)
I just looked again at the photo, why don't you make a bridle (wire and swaged ends) that are attached to the top of the sail. You can have any local marine store make these up.

The length of the bridle is the length of the tack of the sail down to the tack shackle on the furler. Harken even recommends doing this if the luff is shorter than the foil.

Have it attached to the head of the sail, then you can attach your halyard to the bridle, the kink will be in the mast like raising the foot of the sail, and now the foot of the sail will be at the base of the furler, and fix your healing problem.

You could do this with some really small tech 12 line also.

Hope this helps out.

Edited by - Ericson33 on 06/16/2006 11:53:17

danandlu
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
175 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2006 : 16:31:30

Thanks C.S. and all again. I am going to print all this and take it with me to the lake. Then cogitate. Sail THEN cogitate. Whatever. I'm leaving in 15 minutes. (Wishful thinking - a week's paperwork to do first).

Dan

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2006 : 16:32:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Capri25
 I am just joking around here but its called LINE on a sailboat not rope, rope is what you tie a horse up to a post with.

Or for your application the line is called a halyard.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Well, to continue the fun, the way I've heard it, a "line" is a functioning item such as a halyard, sheet, or dockline, and can be made of "rope", wire cable, or whatever. So, you can buy yourself some rope to make lines. Also, you'll generally hear of a wire-to-rope halyard--which is a line.

Edited by - on

Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1913 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2006 : 21:36:16

Found this on a nautical web site.

ROPE - In general, cordage as it is purchased at the store. When it comes aboard a vessel and is put to use it becomes line.

LINE - Rope and cordage used aboard a vessel.

Edited by - on

Lightnup
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1016 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2006 : 23:39:11

Have an irreverent buddy who calls them all "strings."

Edited by - on

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2006 : 09:09:54

Steve your irreverent buddy sounds like my youngest son who when first comming aboard my boat, and having surveyed everything, admitted, "boy dad you sure like strings"

Val on Calista # 3936, Patchogue, N.Y.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2006 : 10:16:23

Dan,
When will you rig your Cuningham, boom vang and reefing lines? What is the halyard like line made off to the starboard lifeline forward of the forward lower shroud? With three wraps on the main winch I would expect the main halyard tension to look better than it does, is your boom belayed so it will not rise? It looks like you use a sail stop rather than a line to hold your boom.

Edited by - on

danandlu
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
175 Posts

Response Posted - 06/19/2006 : 09:42:54

I decided to try C.S.'s bridle idea. There are no marine stores around here, none that cater to sailing needs. So I bought some rope (soon to be line

) from the local sporting goods store that climbers use as static line. It is supposed to be non stretch and very strong. At the dock I cut a short length, tied a bowline at each end, making sure that the overall length matched the length of the tack extension shackles. I safety tied the knot's ends with small zip strips (what are they called?). I also cleaned and lubricated the furler's bearings. The sail is now lowered and the furler furls great!

Now to Frank's questions.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">When will you rig your Cuningham, boom vang and reefing lines?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I attempted to rig the reefing line Saturday afternoon. I didn't have a line long enough to reach the cockpit when the reef is out so I will buy a longer piece of rope

and do this next weekend. I was hoping to do the boom vang but didn't get to it. I don't have a bale at the mast and was wondering if I can attach to the mast plate somehow? Is there a bale that can be attached to the mast bolt? I thought I saw one at Catalina Direct. When I talked with Catalina Direct they said I shouldn't do that, I should drill and install a bale on the mast itself. I can't see what difference it would make. As to the cunningham, I don't know how to do that. There is a label for one at the bulkhead (one of the 2 PO's had all lines to the cockpit and labeled). I don't think I have pictures of any of this, I will have to wait until next weekend.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">What is the halyard like line made off to the starboard lifeline forward of the forward lower shroud?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That is a flag halyard that I haven't had time to mess with. It doesn't reach to any attachment point on deck so I temporarily put it there.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">With three wraps on the main winch I would expect the main halyard tension to look better than it does, is your boom belayed so it will not rise? It looks like you use a sail stop rather than a line to hold your boom.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

And there's a 2 line clutch in front of the winch. Three wraps, clutch, and cleated, that halyard isn't going anywhere! I have to admit a bit of being sloppy, I may not have actually snugged it fully, I was in a hurry to be under way. I think I had it better this weekend. Sail stops, yes, 2 new ones from CD, I think they called them boom stops - same thing? I positioned the boom in the same position as it was from PO's wear marks.

I certainly have a lot to learn and I thank all of you for you help.

Edited by - danandlu on 06/19/2006 23:33:17

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/19/2006 : 10:09:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by danandlu
 I don't have a bale at the mast and was wondering if I can attach to the mast plate somehow? Is there a bale that can be attached to the mast bolt? I thought I saw one at Catalina Direct. When I talked with Catalina Direct they said I shouldn't do that, I should drill and install a bale on the mast itself. I can't see what difference it would make.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I was planning to do the same thing, but that statement got me to thinking... (Every now and then something does that...) Perhaps they're concerned that the upward pull of the vang might lever the tabernacle up. Mine is lag-screwed thru the cabintop and into the compression post. One would think the stays would hold it down, but..... However, it seems to me some boats came with a bail on the tabernacle or mast base plate. What does anybody think about this?

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 06/19/2006 10:17:08

Ericson33
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
892 Posts

Response Posted - 06/19/2006 : 11:58:20

Well I am glad that the moving the bridle to the top helped out. I would still go and buy some 7x19 wire a couple of thimbles and a sewage tool to attach the sail to the halyard, again you can do it with some high tech line so you should be ok for a while. Just keep in mind that when you tie a bowline in any line it takes 30% out of the breaking strength.

As for the boom vang bridle, I am sure that CD Does not want you to attach the boom vang on the mast bolt because it could bend the bolt. Then you would have to cut the bolt off to get the mast down. On our mast base there is a cut out for a stainless bracket that does go thru the mast bolt, and there is a keyway at the top of this to hold it into place. I do think that you want the bail attached to the mast not the deck.

Cunningham - Basically you just need something to tie to the Cunningham hole in the sail to be able to pull the luff of the sail down towards the deck. This is used mostly in heavier air to gain the right sail shape. I use a stainless hook attached to a block w/ becket. the block is then run thru another fiddle block attached to the bail on the mast then run back towards the cockpit to a cam cleat. 3to1 purchase. I will look for some photos of the mast base. Remember that I sail a Capri 25

Here is the drawing from Catalina
http://www.capri25.com/capri25rigging.pdf

Edited by - Ericson33 on 06/19/2006 12:18:56

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 06/19/2006 : 23:44:46

I would not trust sail stops to hold the boom if I were really hardening the main halyard. Someone has removed the cleats from your mast, I would put one back on and belay a line from the hole in the bottom of the gooseneck to it, then you know your gooseneck will not rise unexpectedly.

Edited by - on

danandlu
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
175 Posts

Response Posted - 06/19/2006 : 23:55:17

C.S.,

Thanks again for more good advice. I was told the climber's line I used to make the bridle is rated to something like 4,000 lbs. (5/16" diameter). I may still switch to wire, especially if I get to buy a new tool! I printed the vang and cunningham illustration, I will study it and take with me to the lake this weekend. I hope to get vang and cunningham done and then I think I have just one more project....

Dan

Edited by - on

danandlu
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
175 Posts

Response Posted - 06/20/2006 : 00:02:17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I would not trust sail stops to hold the boom if I were really hardening the main halyard. Someone has removed the cleats from your mast, I would put one back on and belay a line from the hole in the bottom of the gooseneck to it, then you know your gooseneck will not rise unexpectedly.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks Frank. That brings to mind a question (maybe dumb); just how tight should the halyard(s)be?

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 06/20/2006 : 00:43:25

Because you are shaping airfoils when you tune sails you always want smooth surfaces. The general rule is no wrinkles along the luff of either sail. The higher the wind the harder the halyard tension because when you get underway the sail will stretch out. In very light air you can raise a halyard with your own arm power but you need the winch under most conditions. It is not uncommon to have some vertical wrinkles in high wind, they go away when the sail fills, but never horizontal wrinkles under any circumstances. A really poorly raised sail will even have a "scalloped" look to the luff.
You mention the clutch, it should be closed while you raise the sail, that is the clutch trick, they allow the line to be hailed under tension so you never lose ground. Some people raise their sail with the clutch open and close it after the sail is up, they loose halyard tension. If your clutch is slipping you should get new line and or new clutches. The stock clutches were poor and are now very old.

Edited by - on

danandlu
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
175 Posts

Response Posted - 06/20/2006 : 09:28:50

Thanks for the reply Frank.

So it's okay to adjust halyard tension underway? I suppose it should be done straight into the wind otherwise it'd be hard on the slugs and attachments.

It's amazing how many photos I've taken of the boat and I can't find one of the clutches. I don't think they are the originals, they seem to work fine. PO told me the original owner had arthritis and upgraded to larger winches - I don't remember if he mentioned the clutches.

Edited by - on

Ericson33
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
892 Posts

Response Posted - 06/20/2006 : 12:29:01

Like Frank stated you want the Luff of the sail flat all the way up the mast. You don't need to go head to wind to adjust the sail, Infact I wouldn't change coarse at all, this way you are ajusting halyard tension to the sail under load. You will learn after time that you will use all of these controls to adjust the sail shape to the wind.

The cunningham is also important because it will allow you to pull down on the luff in heavier winds to flaten the main sail and depower the sail, the outhaul is the same thing but you are pulling out on the foot of the sail to make it flatter. The boom vang allows you to keep the boom from raising up or skying. In heavy wind the vang should be on so the boom will stay flat.

Now when it really gets honking out you will have the main sheet hard to flatten the sail, and I play the travler up and down in the puffs to keep the boat flat. If the wind goes over 25 to 27 we reef the main. At this point the puffs are hitting us at 30 to 33, the rail is in the water, and we are all wet. its time to head on in and drink a beer, there will be better sailing another day.

Edited by - on

Page: of 2

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.