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Bow Riding Laws

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/27/2006 : 18:26:37

While talking to a fellow sailor at the marina yesterday, he warned me that another sailor was stopped on the water and ticketed for having crew forward of the mast while under power. I was a little surprised since I'd never heard of a sailboat being ticketed for having bow riders before whether under sail or power.

The somewhat powerboat centric Michigan Boating Laws states...

"Riding on Bow is illegal if the vessel is not equipped with bow seating and the vessel is operating at greater than slow-no wake speed. Persons are also not allowed to ride on the gunwale. While underway, persons on a vessel cannot sit, stand, or walk on any portion of a vessel not designed for that purpose."

With this law in mind, would 5-6 knots of boatspeed under power be considered a "slow-no wake speed"?

Is riding on the gunwhale illegal for sailboats too?

And finally, the last sentence of the law states that while underway, no one can sit in any portion of a vessel not designed for that purpose, which would rule out sitting anywhere except for the cockpit.

Question...Has anyone ever been ticketed or heard of a sailboat being cited for having bow riders or crew manning the rail?

Don Lucier

North Star SR/FK

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 06/27/2006 : 18:47:47

In that case there were about 315 boats in Cleveland over the past 3 days plus committee boats that were breaking the law.

If it is a ticket per violation it could be argued that there were about 500 violations alone on Thursday night. And that is conservatively speaking.

I chalk this up to the urban legends for sailboats.

If that truly is enforced, they could resolve the entire downtown detroit development problem by ticketing everyone at the NOODS. Funnel the money into some new building development.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 06/27/2006 : 19:34:04

IMHO, he should go to court and fight the ticket.

In order to be convicted, the State would have to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that (1) the vessel was not equipped with bow seating, and (2) the vessel was operating at greater than "slow-no wake speed." Most sailboats don't have bow seating, so the first element would be easy to prove.

The crucial question, then, would come down to the meaning of the phrase, "slow-no wake speed." I would contend that the law should be construed to mean "slow or no wake speed." That interpretation should be adopted, because the state legislature, which wrote the law, undoubtedly knew that most sailboats are designed so that the crew must go forward of the mast to attach, raise and lower the sails, set a whisker or spinnaker pole, tuck in a reef, etc. The Court should not presume that the legislature was ignorant of the manner in which sailboats are operated. The legislature would surely not have intended to make it virtually impossible for sailors to do all the things necessary to operate their boats by making the foredeck prohibited territory. The legislature must have intended to allow crew to use or sit on the foredeck if the boat was traveling at either slow speed or no wake speed. Six kts. is a slow speed, and the defendant's boat could not have been traveling at more than 6 kts (hull speed).

He could prove that his speed was slow by testifying to the boat's designed hull speed, and the windspeed that day. He should introduce an authoritative sailing manual, like the Annapolis Book of Seamanship, to show the Court how a boat's hull speed is calculated. The owner could furnish the Court the waterline length for his boat, and the Court could calculate for himself the boat's maximum hull speed. About six kts. should be considered "slow" by any standard.

He should introduce photos of his boat, showing that it has a bow pulpit and lifelines. That would prove that the boat is especially designed and equipped for people to use the gunwales and foredecks of the boat. He should also introduce a copy of any issue of Sail magazine, and show the court all the photos of crew members riding on the gunwales of sailboats. That would further support his testimony that, if gunwales and foredecks are equipped with lifelines and a bow pulpit, then the boat is especially designed and equipped to have people sit on the gunwales and foredeck.

IMHO, the defendant should be acquitted of the offense.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 06/27/2006 19:38:16

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3494 Posts

Response Posted - 06/27/2006 : 20:09:36

I think the key to interpreting the info passed along from that individual to you is in the words "while under power" . I know that when I took a free boat safety class offered at the Washington DC Harbor Police Station, they indicated that individuals should not ride on the bow of a boat under power. I do not remember if it was a law but I could check. However, the concern was because if the person was to fall off the boat, they could hit the prop of a boat under power. Okay...I see why they indicate this is a safety concern but it does not seem to apply to a sailboat that is under sail. Maybe the person that received the ticket, did so because there were individuals on the sailboat on the bow whuile the boat was using it's motor.

The second issue in the paragraph you quoted "While underway, persons on a vessel cannot sit, stand, or walk on any portion of a vessel not designed for that purpose.", I think one could argue that at least for the Catalina 25 that the boat is designed for a person to be other than just in the cockpit because our boats have lifelines forward of the cockpit. Why have lifelines forward of the cockpit if you are not to be anywhere other than in the cockpit.

There are some that simply sit with there back against the mast while others sit up forward with legs dangling over the bow sides. I would think that dangling feet over the bow sides and without lifelines would attract much more attentionof the officials.

Sometimes as info is passed along, the story changes slightly...so we really do not know under what conditions a ticket was given.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 06/27/2006 : 20:45:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 IMHO, he should go to court and fight the ticket.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I was told that the sailor who was cited is going to contest the ticket.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 The crucial question, then, would come down to the meaning of the phrase, "slow-no wake speed."<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">From the Michigan Boating Laws...

"“Slow-No Wake Speed” - The slowest speed at which it is still possible to maintain steering and does not create a wake"

As far as the details surrounding the ticket, as I previously stated, I was told the boat ticketed was under power, not sail, and had someone forward of the mast. This story is not an urban legend passed from one person to another, but a direct account told to my slipmate who passed it on to me as a warning for me to watch out for law enforcement.

Edited by - on

existentialsailor
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1180 Posts

Response Posted - 06/27/2006 : 21:18:20

It's not the governments' role to protect me or my passengers from my boat.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/27/2006 : 22:02:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by existentialsailor
 It's not the governments' role to protect me or my passengers from my boat.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I'll leave that one alone for the moment... But the law is clearly aimed at situations where (and I know about one) kids are sitting with their legs over the bow, the boat is moving at a modest clip (maybe 20 knots), it hits a wake, one of the kids falls overboard (meaning under the boat), and is sucked into the prop and turned into hamburger before the skipper can even get his hand on the throttle. When I see a family going out into the Sound with kids sitting up there, I almost want to sink their boat before somebody gets killed! Yes, the government should protect kids from criminally stupid adults.

As for sailboats, 5 knots is certainly no-wake speed for the C-25--most powerboats make more of a wake at 1.5 knots. And our lifelines and non-skid suggest that the foredeck is intended for crew. But for your own kids safety, don't underestimate the destructive potential of a 10 hp outboard.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 06/27/2006 22:03:54

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 06/27/2006 : 22:05:55

Silly ticket. The foredeck of a sailboat is rather obviously designed to be walked on and otherwise occupied while underway. (well, most of 'em anyway).

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 06/27/2006 : 22:26:51

Foward or Fore-deck.

Focsle (Forecastle)
"The section of the upper deck of a ship located at the bow forward of the foremast.
A superstructure at the bow of a merchant ship where the crew is housed. "

paul

Edited by - on

Lightnup
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1016 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2006 : 09:04:26

On any given weekend, it's hard to keep count of all the motoryachts and express cruisers that go plowing up and down the ICW in our area with the required sunbathing babe(s) reclined on the foredeck. As long as they slow for the no-wake zones, they're not bothered. I guess the marine patrol is more worried about whether a manatee is injured than a boat passenger.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2006 : 09:26:56

I'd also point out that sailboats have to be head-to-wind when they raise the mainsail, and that requires that crew be forward of the mast on most boats, with the motor running, when they raise the mainsail.

If the facts of this case are the way we are all thinking, I'd fight it. If, however, the guy had the throttle wide open, with two small children on the bow, then it's a whole different picture.

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2006 : 09:40:10

I agree with Dave. I recall that as a Coast Guard Auxiliarist in Virginia we often warned boaters that they could be ticketed for allowing passengers to ride with their legs over the bow or any other part of the vessel for that matter. I don't recall if it was federal of state statute however. It would seem though that the state again finds itself protecting us from ourselves.......or rather, imprudent vessel operators, with statutes that make little sense to those of us who are conscious of safety at least most of the time.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2006 : 10:29:23

Lets throw a wrench into the mix - J-22's don't have lifelines, (something noted as an indicator to allow people to sit or move in that area) nor do many other racing sailboats. Operating them without crew on the rail in very windy conditions would be near insane as the weight is needed to keep the boat upright.

Edited by - on

Ericson33
Admiral

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USA
892 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2006 : 10:45:49

The guy was in the wrong place at the right time. If a patrol wants to give a ticket they will do it. The guy could have been stopped, and was a real smart with the patrol, or the patrols wife could have given him crap the night before.

The main fact is that its your job to watch your crew and passengers on board. If they do some thing stupid, you tell them. I would have been on the floorboards laughing at the patrol, you don't want a person forward of the mast when the boat is over a No wake speed, and yes I would be the one getting the ticket.

Lifelines are nice to have on a boat that is for sure, I have crewed on a J22 and Santana 20's many times and its not a fun ride in a blow. We always have a crew forward of the mast, Fordeck sits on the rail forward of the mast, tacking he gets up and goes around the mast to help the genny thru, Down wind Pole, topping lift, Halyard up, Genny down, Flake on forward fordeck. Gibes we are all over the fordeck, and same goes for the leeward mark. On the S20 the fordeck is a nice curved surface, with these great smoked plexiglass hatches to slide all over.

Patrol guy needs to look at the 25.5 site :)

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3494 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2006 : 11:38:53

In the Washington DC area where I sail (mostly north of the Wilson/beltway bridge) this area is teaming with coast guard boats (inflatables, cutter and even their schooner) and then we have the helicopters buzzing about and the DC harbor police, Fairfax, Va Fire & Rescue and assorted other govt entities). It is not exactly a quiet place especially when you then add in the Natl Reagan planes and the tourist cruise ships.

I have been stopped once , so far, in the early spring by a coast guard inflatable. 2 of the 4 hopped on and gave me a checkout. But I had a good experience. They said I was in compliance with all regulations, gave me an inspection/boarding paper for flashing in case I was stopped again during the season, were very complimentary indicating I had a real clean boat with no water in the bilge, etc and then joked a bit with me. It was also a day with very little wind and so the diversion was fine with me.

Then about 10 minutes later , jut before I put my motor on to come into the marina, they wer again approaching me and asked if I had been boarded before. I started to smile and was just about to say - didn't they recall they just boarded me 10 minutes ago...when they came alongside and said that they were only foolin with me. they thought they left their boat checklist looseleaf in my cabin and if they could come onboard and see if it was there...which it was. then as they were leaving, one indicated they were going to be back in 10 mi nutes to board me again. ha ! ha ! ha ! I told them i was going to get into the dock before that happened.

So went that otherwise uneventful day.

Edited by - on

RedRedWhine
Navigator

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USA
167 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2006 : 13:19:54

Hello all,

Here is the Nevada Law on this: Negligent or Reckless Operation of a vessel or the reckless manipulation of water-skis, a surfboard or similar device is operating in a manner that causes danger to the life, limb, or property of any person. Examples of negligent or reckless operation are:
Riding on the bow, gunwale, transom or swim platform of a vessel while underway at a speed greater than no wake speed . I thought that this was when only under power and not sail. I will contact them today and see what I can find out.

Edited by - on

saribella
Captain

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USA
286 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2006 : 13:41:40

Don,

I had read your post from the other day regarding the issue at hand. I assume that the violation, marine patrol, and the operative law is here in the State of Michigan. I live in Holland, Michigan and have a slip for my Capri 25 on Lake Macatawa that leads into lake Michigan via a narrow channel.

Yesterday evening I proceeded to navigate the channel out to Lake Michigan as I do almost every evening there is a good breeze. As I proceeded to the channel I spotted the Coast Guard as well as the Ottawa County Sheriff's Department Marine Patrol boats ahead of me an decided to put the question to them. I described a "possible" scenario to them regarding the issue and whether or not one could be cited for the circumstances described. Both the Marine Patrol as well as the Coast Guard stated that a sailboat is specifically designed for passengers and crew to be forward of the mast as well as stationed on the foredeck; and that a sailboat either under motor power or sail may conduct operations in those locations at any time as a matter of common practice of design. The captian has the ultimate responsibility over passenger and crew in the operation of the sailboat. However, the Marine Patrol Deputy did state that any hazard created or allowed by "any" crew, captian, or passenger on the foredeck areas can be subject to citation under the operative law. In my opinion this would suggest crew or passengers being allowed to hang over the beam whilst unattached to rigging, rope, etc. or something similar in nature.

When I am out on Lake Michigan off of Grand Haven on Saturday to see the finish of the Queens Cup Race, I will make sure the Marine Patrol cites every single one of those lawless hooligans as they enter the channel. http://www.ssyc.org/_site02/Queens_Cup.asp

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2006 : 17:35:34

Like I said, I don't know the specifics surrounding the ticketed vessel, but I assume that since he was under power, the crew forward of the mast were probably just lounging on the deck and were neither actively involved in sail handling nor providing ballast on the rail. Maybe in this situation, law enforcement personnel applied the rules to the sailboat as if it were a power boat.

My marina is home to a lot of law enforcement entities (Metropark police, County Sheriff, Border Patrol, DNR, INS) so chances are good that one might have an encounter in the vicinity. Last year when paying my monthly slip fees, the marina manager advised me to check my bow numbers because the "infraction of the day" was proper size and spacing of bow numbers with boats being ticketed left and right. This is one of the reasons I get the USCG Auxiliary courtesy inspection sticker every year.

I'll try to get more details of the bow riding ticket this weekend.

Edited by - on

Ericson33
Admiral

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USA
892 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2006 : 18:52:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 the marina manager advised me to check my bow numbers because the "infraction of the day" was proper size and spacing of bow numbers <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Listen to this (Makes me mad) I try and follow all the rules of the road here at our club. I had to wait for a slip for over two years, and was given a mooring in the shallows. I wrote a letter to the BOG to move my mooring ASAP as I draw over 4'-0". The BOG wrote me back and let me move the boat (this being back in 2003).

I was walking the docks one day and just looking at the boats that just SAT in their slips all year. I can count 12 boats that have 97 tag stickers, another 15 to 20 that range in the 98-2000 and another 15 or so boats 2000 to 2002. It really mad me mad that I spend all of this time working on my boat to make her clean and kept up, and these owners just don't care.

One of the Capri 25's here at the club is in the 97 tag range. The top of the boat is black with crap, the tiller is rotted off the post, the halyards are about to split in two, and the backstay line is gone, rotted out and laying on the floor. It was a nice boat and would make a nice boat again, but the owner is a Doctor and is in no hurry to sell it, or clean it up.

This is the story of about 30% of our sailing club. The corp. could make a killing on just the "out of date tags" at the docks, these boats are on the water and need to be updated. I feel like the club is becoming a cheap storage solution for sailboats that are outdated and in need of some TLC.

I wrote the board about this, and their comback was if the boats were updated, and all of the owners did use their boats then the sailing club would be so busy that there would be a line to do just about anything there, and that the lake would be more conjested.

If these owners were given the chance by the BOG to move their boats to dry storage (most of these owners are older +70) Or these boats were moved to morrings, then the more active owners could be using the slips.

The boats need to be updated at the very least. It still makes me a little angry about the whole deal, and at the BOG because they are worried about people getting out to the club to go sail.

AND THEY WONDER WHY THE RACING BOATS ARE SO FEW ON NUMBERS.

Rant over

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2006 : 19:17:01

Chris,

My marina manager was not the one who initiated the bow number check, she was just warning marina patrons after several boaters coming into the marina office told her of their run-ins with the law. She was just giving us a much appreciated heads up.

Edited by - on

Lightnup
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1016 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2006 : 22:56:34

Our marina has a 6-out/6-in policy. If you don't use your boat a minimum of 6 times during a year (must be in 6 different weeks), you're out. Boats must have current registration also. This year, they sent 23 owners notices that they were about to lose their slip privileges. Why bother owning a boat if you're not going to use it?

Steve

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