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arlingva
Navigator

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USA
116 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/05/2002 : 22:02:23

First, I want to tell those on this forum I can't belive the amount of great information and I thank you for it. Second, I want to beg for help.

I am buying my first non-dinghy. I have settled (largely because of those on this forum)on either a C25 of C250. I'll briefly outline my rationale and then ask specific questions. Please feel free to offer any comments you think helpful.

I have two small children (2 and 5) and will be sailing on the upper Potomac near Washington, DC. I love to race, but this will be a secondary consideration because of my wife (unless we take the casual approach and race with family.) I think I would prefer a wing keel and a relatively new boat. Wing keel, because of shallow water in primary area of use and new, because I like sailing, not fixing my boat.

Should I get a 25 or 250?

How far out of area should I look? (Cost of delivery, buying trailer, renting tow vehicle, time in ICW, etc)

Any suggestions on which yacht listings might bear the most fruit?

Also, I am leary (for no particular reason) of the water ballast model.

Please hurry with replies. Boat units have been approved, want to spend before authorization revoked!

Thanks, Bill Swanson, McLean, Virgina <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2002 : 23:22:32

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
because I like sailing, not fixing my boat.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Not sure I've ever fixed anything on OJ - but have spent a lot of time performing normal maintenance and installing convenience related upgrades to keep the boat in superb condition.
If you want to maximize your time underway (with two small children that would almost be a must), I'd point you towards a 250 as I think they were designed with less maintenance in mind.
Good luck and keep us posted!

Steve Madsen
#2428
OJ(Ode to Joy)

[url="http://catalina25-250.org/photo0.htm/"]<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/photo/ode075.jpg" border=0>[/url]

Edited by - on

cathluk
Admiral

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USA
513 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2002 : 08:00:17

If you are interested in a C250 I would suggest NOT buying brand new, but looking for a 2 or so year old boat & let the original owner that the initial depreciation hit. Of course, you may not be willing to wait to find that perfect boat with your desired list of options or the transport distance my eat up the savings, but its worth looking around.

Happy hunting & welcome!

Cathy
"Blown Away"
'97 C250WK #253

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2002 : 09:58:28

Hi Bill...

Flying over it, the upper Potomac looks like very thin water--how thin is it really? I believe (but don't have the specs with me) that the C-250 WK draws more than the C-25 WK (which draws just about the same as the fully-raised swing). But the difference is probably not that important to you. A 250 is certainly a lower-maintenance boat than the 25, especially because of its age. (After all, some like to let their teak deteriorate "naturally", so I guess that maintenance is optional, depending on your taste.

For sailing up there, I'd think hard about the water ballast 250. It could keep you out of a lot of trouble, and allow you to explore some places you couldn't risk with a keel. From what I've gathered (not being a 250 owner), it's not that much more tender. The downside is headroom below, but aside from standing in the pop-top galley area, who walks around that much in a boat like these?

If your small children like to jump in and out of the river (??) or in and out dinghies, kayaks, or whatever, the open transom on the 250 is a great feature. For a 2-year-old, it may be a bit of a hazzard where you'll want to rig some mesh (as you might to the lifelines).

The best site I know is Yachworld.com--a big broker site. But brokers don't handle that many 25-footers, so I'd get in touch with some Catalina dealers (such as in Annapolis) who may have somebody trading up.

That's all I've got--I haven't sailed the 250, my youngest is 25 and long gone, I sail in relatively deep water, and I couldn't allocate the boat units for the 250. <img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle>

Good luck in your quest!

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 06/06/2002 10:01:56

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2002 : 11:00:33

I sail a C25 swing (older) in Washington State. I'm not a big fan of water ballast, either, but for some applications....maybe...As for where to look: I'd certainly try Yachtworld search, then I'd go to Boat Trader Online, which has more private sellers, and smaller boats. I would also hit the online classified sections of relatively local major newspapers. Private sellers allow you to possibly save some $$ without the broker's fees, but may take you more time in tracking the boats down, arranging to look, etc. Inquire at Catalina dealers and somewhat local brokers.

As for how far away? I've hauled trailerables home from nearly 1,000 miles, but it's stressful...I regularly tow mine (4150 + gear and trailer) 250 miles one way to the San Juan islands in the summer, but it's always "nervous time"..I use an older 3/4 ton Ford PU, 460 c.i. engine (more than adequate). I would suggest that you wouldn't want to tow 1/2 way across the U.S. You should be able to find the Catalina you want much closer to you than that..there are lots of them out there. Look at a number of models before you plunk down the dough. Try to talk to people. This forum is a good place to start: maybe the 250 folks will hurry in with their opinions soon. Good luck, and don't get desperate and settle for a MacGregor, or some other such piece of poo-pah....Gary B. Encore! C25 SK/SR #685

P.S. I'm trying to sell my second C25 right now!!! Wish you were here!

Edited by - on

Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2002 : 11:17:14

Try this site www.boats.com select boats for sale, sail, used and the other criteria that you want. It has provided me with many good ours of dreaming.

Doug&Ruth
Wind Lass
Tacoma Wa.

Edited by - on

jellyfish
Navigator

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USA
171 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2002 : 11:47:35

your questions beg questions???
where do you live?
who much do you have to spend?
where are you going to keep the boat?
how often are you going to use the boat?
day sail or weekender?

there are a great many C25 for sale here in FLA. sailboat trader is a mag that comes out every month with loads of boats in it. it always has at least 5 or 6 C25 in it. let me know if I can help!

my very personal opinon(please no one take offense) I would never again buy a boat with a hole in the bottom. I have had one swinger in my life and that was one too many. My fixed keel draws 4ft. Lots of sandbars around here. Many I know my heart. Just make you a better sailor!

Edited by - on

jm
Captain

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Canada
290 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2002 : 12:07:24

>jellyfish> I would never again buy a boat with a hole in the bottom

Ouch, that stings.. <img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle>

Edited by - on

gerdo
Navigator

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107 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2002 : 12:30:18

I keep my c25 at herrington harbor (north) in deale maryland. They have a bulletin board there with boats for sale by owner. ther was a WK there last month. Have not looked at board recently. I am going there tomorrow to hopefully sail. I will look if you want and forward info. Or If you want to visit the marina has a web site with directions. By the way I live in Vienna so hello from another northern virginian.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5913 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2002 : 13:35:32

Bill,

I have never sailed on a C-250, but I have raced against them, and my remarks are based on that experience and on comments made by C-250 owners on this forum.

Both the C-25 and C-250 sail very well, but they have very different personalities. You might prefer one personality to the other. I suggest you look for an opportunity to sail one of each in average to fresh sailing conditions, so that you can experience for yourself how they sail, and decide which is more to your liking. By spending a couple hours aboard them, you will get a feel for their interior accommodations. If possible, your wife should accompany you, and, if I were you, I would buy whichever boat she likes. You will love either boat, and you will both be happier if she also loves the boat. My C-25 T/FK has beaten C-250's and, conversely, has been beaten by C-250's. If well sailed, they are competitive with each other, and you will enjoy racing or cruising either boat.

Apparently you don't presently have a tow vehicle, so I suggest that you make it a part of your deal that the seller deliver the boat to your location and assist you in launching and rigging it for the first time. (Include a provision to that effect in your purchase agreement.) The seller probably has a tow vehicle, and if he wants to sell the boat, that would not be a terribly burdensome requirement (depending on the distance). Hold back part of the purchase price until the boat is delivered, launched and set up at your location. If you have to buy a tow vehicle or hire it done, it could be expensive, and you might as well avoid that expense as long as you can. The seller can undoubtedly give you a lot of good tips about launching and rigging the boat.

Your choice of a wing keel sounds appropriate for your waters, and would probably be readily marketable for lake sailing or coastal cruising anywhere.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

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jellyfish
Navigator

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USA
171 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2002 : 17:12:41

JM, I said please no one take offense. I know it is a touchie feelie subject!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2002 : 17:53:03

If you don't want a boat with a hole in the bottom, I guess that rules out ever having one with an inboard engine. . .

I'm one river below you, on the Rappahannock. I would think the biggest issue about having a water ballast boat is whether you are going to take the boat in and out of the water every time you go sailing. If you're not going to rent a slip and don't mind spending two hours out of every sailing day rigging and unrigging the boat (at a minimum), then WB is probably the way to go.

On the other hand, you might look a little farther out than the ridiculously priced marinas (and everything else) in the DC area. Rather than spend an hour rigging and unrigging, look for marinas an hour or so away from you, and investigate dockage prices there. After eight years having my boat at a private dock on the Eastern Shore, we moved to Richmond and the boat to a marina in Urbanna, VA. I love the marina in the small town. If I need the boat worked on, it's all right there. I drive an hour, jump in the boat, and GO. And when I get back, there are six or seven great restaurants nearby. Other boaters at the marina are friendly and always willing to help or give advice.

An hour from NOVA puts you. . . in Annapolis or the West or South or Magothy Rivers, or in Colonial Beach, or down in southern Maryland. Look around. . . it might be worth your while in many, many ways.

Brooke Willson

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jellyfish
Navigator

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USA
171 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2002 : 18:10:45

that is 100% correct Brooke. that is one of the many reasons I feel that the C25 tall rig, fixed fin is the perfect boat. No holes in the bottom, the motor hangs over the stern, the tiller is simple and safe. It is the biggest small boat around for the money. for a couple on weekend sails, it is the best. And when I do buy my next boat which will be in 30-34ft range it will probally be a catamaran. For all the same reasons. they can be rigged with an outboard, you can get them with no swingers or daggers, and even with wheel steering the rudders are still hung on the transom! just one small problem, I dont have 100k lying around right now! <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2002 : 19:02:43

Jellyfish - you just took the words right out of my mouth! With 2 small children and an admiral on board, I'd want a boat that is not as tender as a piece of steak tartare (boy - I bet that raises a few hackles <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>) The C25 TRFK is stable, forgiving, a joy to sail and comfortable enough for a couple with 2 kidlets. I've sailed in 40K+ winds and 16' seas (not in a C25 I hasten to add) but I've never been so apprehensive as when I was on a C250WK...and having to reef the jib in 10 knots.....<img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>
Derek on "This Side Up" C25 #2262

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2002 : 21:13:48

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
...but I've never been so apprehensive as when I was on a C250WK...and having to reef the jib in 10 knots.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Huh?? Really? I can't dispute that, but I'm surprised...

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette "Passage" in SW CT

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arlingva
Navigator

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USA
116 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2002 : 21:21:00

Thanks for the inputs. Gerado, I am very interested. I looked at a nicely maintained c25 sk at backyard boats (shady side) last week. Good value, but don't know if I want SK.

Dave, you are right channels narrow and water shallow.

Brooke, love Urbanna, raced there on a Benetau 235, friend kept at Regent Point. Beautiful little town.

Doug, thanks for www.boats.com, found several possibilities I hadn't seen yet.

Steve and Derek, you are right, if the Admiral's not happy, nobody's happy.

Cathluk, saw a c 250 (I think) listed somewhere. That's not you or anybody you know, is it?

Thanks for the help everyone, please let me know if you find a possibility for me. Price not as much of an issue as value.

Thanks again, Bill

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2002 : 21:56:07

BTW, Bill... If you see a 1991 or later Catalina 25 listed, it's a 250 (or else it's older than it says). I've seen that mistake several times from brokers who don't know or care much about the difference. The 25 was built through 1989, I believe, and I think the 250 started production as a 1991.

If you like the C-25, the wing would be your best choice--it avoids the issues of suspending 1500 lbs of cast iron on a SS cable, and maintenance of all of that. The C-25 wing draws only about 2" more than the fully raised swing, but apparently sails nicely enough for non racers. The fin draws another 14", which could make a difference for you on the Potomac. The swing draws 5' down, which is a foot more than the fin.

The C-250 WB centerboard is fiberglass with a 100 lb weight, I believe, to keep it down. Pulled up, that's your lowest-draft choice among Catalina's 25 footers. Some sailers pull it part way up to move the CLR back for optimal helm balance, which also reduces draft a little.

We like our C-25 fin, but if we move to the Chesapeake, we may switch to a wing (or some other thin-water boat), but not a swinger.

Let us know...

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

Rick Heaverly 86 C25 5382
Navigator

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Belize
206 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2002 : 06:41:18

i have a f/k and sail the chesapeake. run aground much? no. but when i have i would have been aground with a w/k too.

i like the traditional look of the c-25. the 250 is much more open (maybe better for the kids)and imho has less privacy.

good luck, you will enjoy either.

Rick Heaverly
"Invictus"

Edited by - on

cathluk
Admiral

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USA
513 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2002 : 08:20:26

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

Cathluk, saw a c 250 (I think) listed somewhere. That's not you or anybody you know, is it?

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

No chance! We just put the new balanced rudder on our '97 & have no intentions of selling it anytime soon!

Cathy
"Blown Away"
'97 C250WK #253

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Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2002 : 10:31:29

You will find that the single most hotly debated topic on this forum is swing keel vs. wing or fin. My extensive (lol) four year experience with a 17 year old swing keel is that the dangers of such are highly overrated. BTW, the keel is NOT suspended by one little wire: it is hung from a beefy bronze pin, and raised and lowered by a wire thicker than the shrouds. There's probably as much tension on the shrouds at times as on the keel pennant (not 1500 lbs., by the way. . . do the math!), but there isn't constant discussion of the stays giving way! Would I trust the swing keel in the Southern Ocean? Of course not. For where and how I sail? You bet. But that's MY experience, Val!

I bought the swing because I needed it living on the Eastern Shore. In the upper Chesapeake, you can get away with the fin. The lower Bay is shallower. If I had it to do over again, I would probably look for a wing keel, and I may someday do the Bisagni Memorial Conversion from swing to wing. On the other hand, the swing properly maintained works for me.

I don't like catamarans: it's a purely aesthetic thing. Practically, it's sometimes hard to find a slip wide enough for them without paying an arm and a leg. I LIKE the boat to heel. And they're just plumb ugly. What is sailing except all about aesthetics? I know they're intensely practical, intensely expensive, intensely fast. But if I wanted to go fast, I wouldn't have bought a blowboat.

I think the 25 is lots prettier than the 250. And with two little kids for a weekend, you and the missus might like a bulkhead between you and the little ones. Sailboats, after all, are such romantic places to be. . . . !

I'm heading to the boat: NE winds 12 - 15 kts, temps in the low 70's. Thank you, God!

Brooke

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2002 : 11:18:52

Right on, Brooke! I LOVE a swing. It's got plenty of ballast unless you want to sail overpowered. I can throw it on the trailer to get to new locations easily, or do my own maintenance w/o a yard, and if I get in "thin water" I can raise the board to get out of trouble. I have replaced the cable only ONCE in 24 years (freshwater except for a few weeks in summer), although I have one now for this season's job...
The swing is great for me......frankly I am rather tired of all the bashing it gets from people who don't own one......should I make a detailed list of all the boats I have heard of/read about that lost their FIN keels because of rusted bolts, etc. A fin keel/ wing/ swing/ wb All have their advantages/disadvantages, etc. For me, the swing is my preference.....quit bashing it unless you have one!

Gary B. Encore! #685 Kalama, WA
and Suede Shoes #496 Both '78 swingers with keels still attached, and TO-HULLS! ( I like to live on the edge)

Edited by - on

jellyfish
Navigator

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USA
171 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2002 : 11:27:29

Brooke, I know there are good reasons(everyone has thier own) for different types of boats and rigs. I subscribe to the KISS method for everything in my life. Im sure you have heard of the keep it simple stupid method. I sail the Intercoastal from Pensacola to Panama City, Fl. We do run aground a couple a times a year. Not to bad for someone who lives on their boat every weekend. We do alot of sailing! Having one more thing to maintain, which is not a neccesity to form or function to me is not worth the trouble. As far a catamarans go, I learned to sail self taught on a Prindle 16 twenty years ago. I have been though 4 sailboats since and my 87 C25 is the 5th. I agree that I love the looks of a traditional sailboat. Other than some women I have seen there is nothing better looking! But when I retire, hopefully in 5yrs I plan to sail from here and make my way from island to island around the Caribean and back around the Gulf. Giving Im still alive, Ill do the trip again. This ought to take about 5 yrs!
Although a catamaran is not the best looking girl at the dance they are damn sure dependable if outfitted right. They have alot of room and can be easily single handed or sailed by a couple. I have studied and studied the pro and the cons. When it is all said and done I always come back to the KISS method. Too bad Catalina dont make a big cat, if they did I would buy one!!!

Edited by - on

jellyfish
Navigator

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USA
171 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2002 : 11:44:43

P.S. GaryB and all other. At the very beginning I took care to say "please no offense". So again "please take no offense" I am not bashing anyone. Just simply stated my opinion, and I will be the first to admit opinions are like s, everyone got one. But for the record I did own a swinger. The cable snapped in a summer storm which we have alot of and the boat sunk! My confession is that I should have replaced the cable as it was old and worn out. If I had properly maintain the damn thing it would not have happened. But that brings me back to my orginal point! Why have something that you have to maintain when it is not a necessity?

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2002 : 11:57:13

Auh boy, I sense another one of those threads coming on . . . <img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle>

Edited by - on

Ed Montague
Captain

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USA
499 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2002 : 14:27:08

Point of interest that has been brought up here before about the swing keel (of which I have and like) is that even though the keel is 5 feet long, the draft with the hull in the water is closer to 6 plus feet. I have an underwater cross member at the opening of my slip that is 6'4" below the surface. My keel would rub on it coming and going with me single handing. With any crew on board we needed to take a couple of turns on the winch to clear. Last winter the dock I am on broke in half during a big storm, right at my slip. Since the repair to the dock I don't need to raise the keel any more. <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle> I would be interested to know what the true draft of the fin keel is.

Ed Montague on 'Yahoo'
1978 #765 SK, Stnd, Dinette ~_/)~

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2002 : 15:33:24

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Why have something that you have to maintain when it is not a necessity?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

A boat is hardly a necessity, and we have to maintain them, no matter what keel they have.

I don't want to start another swing keelers against the world thread. Been there, done that. I'm just saying I like mine, I believe it has at least as many advantages as disadvantages, and prospective buyers should know both sides of the story.

If a swing keel/centerboard is so horrible, I wonder why Hinkley continues to built them into their yachts?

Brooke

Edited by - on

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