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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Regarding keel-up/keel-down when underway

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Lightnup
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1016 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/07/2006 : 23:23:01

(April 28th broach of a C22 on the Indian River, Melbourne, FL., as printed in the July issue of Southwinds magazine.)

"Normally keelboats right themselves, but not this time. They had partially lifted their swinging keel to clear a sandbar and, in their zeal to play with the new spinnaker, they forgot to lower the keel back into position. They launched the chute to port and created a dramatic event after a gybe. As soon as the sail refilled, the boat broached and took a vicious knockdown.

As a crewmember fell to the aft corner of the cockpit, two others jumped on the keel, trying to pop it back up like a Laser. The partially lifted keel didn't provide enough leverage and the wind pushed on the hull. The low-side seat hatches let in huge amounts of water. In less than 30 seconds after the mast hit the water, the hull dropped out of sight with blasts of spray from escaping air. The crew was left standing on the port side of the hull - sunk in 8-1/2 feet of water with the masthead in the mud."

If I ever own a swing keel again, that puppy is staying in the down position.

Steve

Steve Madden
'87 WK #5668 "Lorica"
Fort Myers, FL

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djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1561 Posts

Response Posted - 07/08/2006 : 01:21:12

WOW, that sounds like a good reason to keep it down. I can't imagine you would get that much more speed with it up downwind. Cheers.

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ClamBeach
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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 07/08/2006 : 09:34:37

"The low-side seat hatches let in huge amounts of water."

I saw a Venture 21 sink that way during a knockdown (quickly)... J24's are also legendary for sinking by the same method.

When underway I always keep the dumpster (lazarette) hasp latched with a carabiner. Under brisk conditions, I put the hatchboards in place too.

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Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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1893 Posts

Response Posted - 07/08/2006 : 10:38:34

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">from ClamBeach:
"When underway I always keep the dumpster (lazarette) hasp latched with a carabiner. Under brisk conditions, I put the hatchboards in place too."<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">In my opinion, keeping the hatches closed in high winds, and managing the amount of sail area in use, will have a lot more to do with preventing a C-25 from sinking than what position the swing keel is in.

Keep in mind, boats like the C-22 and swing keel Ventures have about 500 # keels, whereas a swing keel C-25 has three times that ballast, and carries it significantly lower, even in the raised position. (A V-22 draws about 12" keel up, a C-25 SK draws over 3' keel up.) Comparing the stability of a 22' swing keel boat to a C-25 which has about the same beam, only 10% to 20% more length, but 300% the swing keel ballast, isn't likely to be a perfectly accurate predictor of likelyhood of flipping and sinking in gusty conditions.

Clearly there have been well publicized instances of the smaller swing keel boats getting knocked down far enough, long enough, to flood. How many C-25s have gone down under similar circumstances? If it were a significant problem, surely we'd have heard plenty about it right here. Consider how thoroughly we've discussed the potential risks of keel cable failure. I've sailed my C-25 with the keel up -- it wasn't quite as stable as with keel down, but it sure wasn't as tippy as my Sunfish!

-- Leon Sisson

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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6855 Posts

Response Posted - 07/08/2006 : 21:39:06

I tend to agree with Leon.

The phrase "In their zeal to play with a new spinnaker" says a lot more about this issue than one might think.

Normally, I'll crank the keel up when running downwind - It has a huge effect on performance. Even in a knockdown with the keel all the way up the boat will pop back up - been there done that.

Unless the sail is not handled properly. If their keel is only 500 lbs, I could possibly see it, but on a 22, your only moving about 200 lbs about 1 foot. I think this boat would have stayed over regardless of keel position. If the crew was trying to stand on the keel, who was holding the guy and pole off the forestay. If it ran free that sail will fill and keep you down. Even after you round and pop up, a pole on the forestay without a tiller in the water, you will go down again.

It is a shame that this happened, obviously no-one wants someone's boat to sink. I just don't see the keel as the cause.

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Turk
Admiral

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USA
736 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2006 : 06:44:22

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">[i]

Unless the sail is not handled properly. If their keel is only 500 lbs, I could possibly see it, but on a 22, your only moving about 200 lbs about 1 foot. I think this boat would have stayed over regardless of keel position. If the crew was trying to stand on the keel, who was holding the guy and pole off the forestay. If it ran free that sail will fill and keep you down. Even after you round and pop up, a pole on the forestay without a tiller in the water, you will go down again.

It is a shame that this happened, obviously no-one wants someone's boat to sink. I just don't see the keel as the cause.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Hey Duane

I owned a C22 swing keel for 2 years and Although I agree that once it was knocked down, other factors would or could have kept it down long enough to fill with water. What I disagree with is what you belive the difference in stability with the keel up or down. With the keel down on the 22 you have a little over 5 feet of draft. It adds tremendously to the stability of the boat. I've made a similar mistake leaving the keel up on a 20 knot day and almost lost my boat! That was without the spinnaker up. Also, my c22 was a 1974 vintage, the favored racing hull. It's beam is 6" narrower. Something else that could contribute to the knockdown. The really sad thing is that the 22 has a keel lockdown pin that hardly anyone uses. If the boat goes over with the keel down, it can swing up further causing a problem.

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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3324 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2006 : 10:55:45

"The really sad thing is that the 22 has a keel lockdown pin that hardly anyone uses. If the boat goes over with the keel down, it can swing up further causing a problem."
Amen to that Turk. That's how our C22 sank...
Derek

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