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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

Rudder pintle failure - design or defective part?

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Bill Arden
1st Mate

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USA
83 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/17/2006 : 13:54:10

Hi, folks -

This weekend, I noticed a failure on my (brand new!) C250 WK. The aft screw on the lower rudder pintle lost its head (the failure mode appears to be fatigue at the point where the threaded shaft of the screw meets the head). I guess this proves that screws react to stress the same way the rest of us do, by losing our heads when we're fatigued

It must have happened a while ago, though the boat has only been in the water since May 30. Here's why I say that: Once the screw failed, the rudder could move sideways in the pintle. In doing that, it has opened up the angle between the sides of the pintle (i.e., they were originally parallel to each other; now they diverge at an angle).

My question to the forum: Is this a known problem (implying a design issue), or just a bad screw?

I think I'd have used a larger bolt, with an unthreaded shaft, instead of a screw threaded all the way to the head.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

Bill Arden
Prana - C250WK #898
Apostle Islands, WI

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2006 : 17:14:15

This is the first I have heard about a screw failure. My understanding is that the screws for these are grade 8 316 stainless and should not have failed. The first thing to do is contact your dealer and take pictures to send to him. If you don't hear anything from him in a couple of days call Catalina. They should send someone to repair the damage completely. You will have to be persistant, but they will responed.

Edited by - on

Bill Arden
1st Mate

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USA
83 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2006 : 22:12:43

Thanks for your reply. I agree - 316SS, grade 8 should be able to hold up the boat! I've got the screw itself, so if anyone wants it I can send it to them. My dealer's being very helpful - they're replacing the pintle as a warranty replacement, and I'll contact Catalina with the information.

Regards,

Edited by - on

jguyot
1st Mate

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USA
97 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2006 : 18:40:57

It's funny that you bring this up! I just had the same failure 2 weeks ago, but my out come was not as good as yours! We were out sailing on Sunday July 2nd in some fairly decent puffs (15-20) and my daughter's boyfriend was at the helm (First time sailing!!) and he was having a hard time keeping it straight as it kept wanting to round up (Yeh I know, I had too much sail up!) On one of the "puffs" we heard a loud "snap"........ Looked around and did not see anything.... Just then my other daughter was looking down at the rudder and told me that something did not look right..... I then noticed that he had no control of the boat..... I looked at the rudder and saw that it was tilted backwards!! Quickly got the sails down to get back under control and then looked closer at the rudder. The "snap" was the aft bolt on the bottom pintle had broke and the front bolt had "pulled through" the front of the rudder and bent the lower pintle. The rudder was just being held on by just the upper pintle. Slowly motored back to the mooring and removed the rudder for repair. We have a good fiberglass repair shop close by and I brought it there for repair. Got it back last weekend, looks as good as new, ($220 for repair) put it on, but have not had enough wind to sail it yet.
And now that I think about it, I did have one of the rudder bolts break a few years ago as well.
The worst of it, was that I had just got the rudder back from Catalina as the rudder had cracked along the leading edge! No, I can't blame them, as I had taken the pintles off before I shipped it to them for repair :-(

I guess I better keep a closer look at those bolts!

Edited by - on

Bill Arden
1st Mate

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USA
83 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2006 : 21:46:47

Hmmm... I reported my failure to Catalina via their web site Monday, and last night (Tuesday) I got a phone call from Frank Butler! We discussed the issue, and I'm going to send him my failed bolt. Why don't you also let them know you had a similar failure? Maybe we ARE looking at something systemic and not random.

Regards,

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2006 : 06:28:24

#586 and #898
not systemic

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WindDancer
1st Mate

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USA
34 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2006 : 22:54:02

Bill,

I have a friend who just sent his rudder back to Catalina for the same problem and he also has a WK boat...

He told me to check my WB boat, no problems. On a side note I was thinking of going to the longer rudder WK rudder for my WB boat, but now with these problems starting to come up I thinking of going with an IDA rudder. Catalina may have several design problems: wheel steering failures and rudder failures. Makes one think.....

FYI
Bruce

Edited by - on

Bill Arden
1st Mate

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USA
83 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2006 : 12:38:10

I agree with Frank that two (or now maybe three) data points don't make a trend - but there may be more unreported data, or incidents that Catalina knows about that isn't on the forum, so I thought it was worth mentioning.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2006 : 09:00:43

Interesting... this has me wondering. Are the bolts being strained during groundings or is the drag of the thick foiled 3rd generation rudder enough to strain the bolts?

Interstingly, when raking my 2nd generation beaching forward to get some balance, it was necessary to change the hold down system. I wanted to go with a line to hold the rudder down and first thought was to use a cleat designed specifically for such purpose that would release once a set tension was reached.

Before purchasing such a cleat, testing was done with a bungee to see if it would work as bungee would be forgiving and automatically return the rudder back down following a brief grounding. I was prepared to use several strands of bungee but much surprised that a single quarter inch bungee held the rudder fully down without problem in all conditions including severe, though it won't return it down until the boat slows to a near stop.

Obviously with that settup, there isn't much force aft on the rudder or there is a force upward that helps hold the rudder from swinging back as the beaching rudder axle is not tensioned.

My reason for sharing and what has piqued my interest is that Catalina refused to consider a beaching rudder as one of the 3rd generation rudder offerings. Gerry Douglas explained to me because they (Catalina) believed the beaching rudders were being operated improperly (sailed with rudder raked aft) causing problems.

The beaching rudder was one of the big design issues of the 250 and touted in early 250 sales promotions, after all the beaching rudder fits the water ballast boat personality so well. Giving up on it would have to have good reason and Catalina's assertion that it was being operated wrongly and therefore they wouldn't provide it in the 3rd design didn't seem rational.

Now I'm wondering, was no 3rd beaching because its foil had more drag than a beaching design could cope with and Catalina just didn't want to comment that a trade off to the 3rd design was increased drag?

I can understand the tight rope that Catalina must sometimes walk but in regards to the rudder issue on the 250, I think they made a mistake in putting the 3rd generation on the water ballast version.

The 3rd is fully understandable on the wing keel, it having more freeboard and usually slipped in a marina... the rudder needed to supply better slow speed and reverse performance and be short enough to clear the keel.

IMHO, Catalina should have stayed with the high aspect ratio beaching 2nd on the water ballast and made the simple mods to make it work.

Edited by - on

Bill Arden
1st Mate

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USA
83 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2006 : 22:29:34

Arlyn et al. -

Some more details, FWIW. My boat's a new (hull no. 898) wing keel 250. Since it's of recent vintage, I presume it has the "3rd Generation" rudder, though I don't know that for certain. It's a fixed, not kick-up, rudder.

The boat occupies a slip in a marina and has never been grounded (heck, it's only been in the water since May 30). The bottom around here is mud anyway, but the rudder has never touched it. I will admit to having occasionally been a bit "enthusiastic" in sailing it in higher winds without reefing, so on one or two occasions I've experienced some significant weather helm.

I'm going to send the broken screw and the bent pintle to Frank Butler for his examination.

Best regards to all,

Edited by - on

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