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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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I wish I'd gone for the new style rudder

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djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1561 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/17/2006 : 18:40:09

Hi All, I sailed sols on Lake St. Clair today for three hours and had a blast. The winds were SE 15 to 20 gusting to 30. I had the little boat rocking but two things I notices are 1. I need to close up the mast gap for the mains'l slugs so I don't have to go on the fordeck while soloing. 2. on a broad reach with 25 kts and 2 foot rollers, I need a LOT of rudder to keep it straight while riding the rollers. I had a chance to buy a balanced rudder from Gene but thought it was more prudent to just fix the old factory rudder....my mistake. Also, I think I will add a autopilot to the list. I want to solo the Port Huron to Macinacuw (sp) which in good winds is 70 hours straight. CHeers.....as I type this I am correcting for the waves...at home!.

Dennis
No Boat
S.E. Michigan

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2006 : 22:33:07

Hi Dennis...

Was your rudder causing you to round up uncontrollably, or were you feeling excessive weather helm? The former is a function of the depth of the rudder, which the new balance rudder doesn't change. The latter is helped somewhat, although the overall balance of your rig is more important. You might want to try raking your mast back a little.

The fact is, if a sailboat heels enough, it both lifts the rudder to the point that there isn't enough "bite", and the angle of the rudder is such that it doesn't provide as much turning force. If your boat has a fair amount of weather helm, the result can be an unexpected "round-up". Were you reefed in those breezes? Doing so will make the boat go faster, reduce weather helm, and give you better control with the rudder (because it's more upright).

I like my balance rudder, but it's only real advantage is a lighter helm. If weather helm is excessive, the drag of either rudder slows the boat, and the balanced rudder merely masks some of that from the helmsman.

When is the race?

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 07/17/2006 22:35:05

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2006 : 07:51:49

Rake forward to reduce weather helm/rounding up.

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2006 : 08:45:00

Dennis, how much sail did you have up in 20 kts. gusting to 30? Dave is right on target: if you were flying too much sail, you were going to have lots of weather helm. I find in my tall rig that I need to reef the main between 12 and 15 knots to keep the boat under control. At the kind of breeze you were experiencing, you should have either had in a second reef or no main at all.

Twice recently I've been out on the Chesapeake in small craft warnings with the kind of winds you described. All I was flying was a furled jib -- at times furled to about 75%. On one of those trips, with the wind over my shoulder, I was still making about 5.5 kts.

There's a popular belief that sailboats go faster the farther they are heeled (pet peeve warning here: it amazes me how many sailors write "heal" instead of "heel." Yes, I find sailing very healing, but not when heeling excessively.). The truth is it just feels faster. Not only does excessive heeling in a boat like ours spill wind from the top of the mast -- that's the physics of the process and the boat's attempt to heal itself by heeling (pun intended) -- but it puts more hull in the water and slows the boat down. There's another thread on this site about optimum angle of heel: I haven't done any scientific studies, but my racing friends say it's somewhere around 12 - 15 degrees for a boat like ours. Hull architecture makes a difference here: our boats are designed to sail pretty upright.

All this is to say, Dennis, that if you had too much sail up, a balanced rudder wouldn't have made the difference you were looking for. I have learned -- painfully -- that when the wind really picks up I can go faster by reducing sail. Instead of having to spill wind from too much main or jib or have the rudder actually create drag from being cranked to windward or have the boat heeled excessively, when the boat is balanced with the right amount of sail trimmed efficiently and the rudder in relatively neutral position and the minimum amount of hull in the water the boat speeds up.

The other factor in this equation is the balance between jib and main. Think of the sails as weather vanes with the mast as an axis. Too much main relative to jib produces weather helm. Too much jib relative to main produces lee helm.

A good boat -- and the C25 is a good boat -- is a living being with tastes and preferences and quirks. As with my wife, it's taken me a long time to learn and appreciate what works well and what doesn't (8 years with the boat, 32 years with Vicki). There's a relationship parable here: next time, when the wind picks up, try slowing down. You might find, amazingly, that everything gets smoother, more enjoyable, and, amazingly, you'll get where you're going more quickly.

Brooke

P.S.: One of the things I learned very early with my boat was that holding a tiller for hours on end gets, as Doc Watson sings, "teejus." A tillerpilot makes singlehanding not only more enjoyable but safer for those times when you need to check the charts, get a drink, tap a kidney, or go otherwise forward.

Edited by - Brooke Willson on 07/18/2006 09:09:10

djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1561 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2006 : 09:07:31

Thanks guys. I was not reefed. I thought about it but I was on nearly a downwind and was having too much fun. I'll have to experiment with the reefs on this boat in differnet wind conditions. Yes I was weatherhelming so hard at times, that it took two hands to keep course until it swung downwave. I am working on the boat today instead of sailing and will rake the mast and see if that helps. Which autopilot should I be looking at? Cheers.

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2006 : 09:24:23

Dennis: If I were sailing downhill in those winds, I would be flying jib and no main at all. The main would be trying to weathercock the boat, which would explain your extreme weather helm. Also, if you had big following seas, they would be constantly trying to slew your stern around, adding to the problem. That's exactly the situation in which it really helps to slow down. I had that same experience last week on the Bay with following seas. When I dropped the main and sailed under jib alone the boat got much more comfortable.

However, I have found that my tillerpilot -- the Raymarine ST1000 -- is pretty incompetent in following seas. It just can't react quickly enough to the slewing of the stern, nor, obviously, can it anticipate the coming waves. I've learned in those situations I'm a far better helmsman that it.

My ST 1000 has been OK, but if I were going to buy a new one I'd look at the Simrad. It's cheaper and lacks the digital readout of the Raymarine, which I've found pretty irrelevant. There's another thread on the site about auto-tacking with tillerpilots, and I'm not the only one who has found that functionally useless: it works better to tack manually and then set the pilot back on the pin. The fluxgate compass in mine is OK for holding a set course as long as the seas are moderate to small, but the readout is always wrong despite many attempts to correct it.

If your mast isn't raked too radically one way or another, I'd suggest you don't mess with that until you experiment with reefing. Look at Bill Holcomb's Tech Tip about tuning the mast, and, if you're pretty close to those specs, don't mess with it until you've exhausted the other suggestions.

Enjoy your day working on the boat: I'm on vacation, but with three-digit temperatures and no wind, the boat is not where I plan to be today!

Brooke

Edited by - Brooke Willson on 07/18/2006 09:41:39

djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1561 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2006 : 10:02:24

Thanks Brooke, that is exactly what was happening. When I read your post, I could vision back and see that I was being weather cocked pretty badly. And now I know the right term (slew) for what I was trying to describe. Thanks much. A PO two or three owners removed mounted a little female socket in the rear starboard hatch cover and a power plug just below it so I know there was an autopilot at one time but not sure what brand. Cheers.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2006 : 10:19:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 Rake forward to reduce weather helm/rounding up.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
DUH!

I agree that following seas were your main issue, Dennis, and to forget the mast rake for now. Raking forward

(or reducing aft rake) would apply to excessive weather helm on a beat. My boat had neutral to even lee helm when I bought her (used)--I raked the mast back and got the light weather helm I wanted. And like Brooke, I prefer the genny alone going downwind in a strong breeze. The genny pulls the boat--the main sort of pushes it, which adds to the slewing problem, the only real solution for which is a long, full keel as on a Cape Dory or Pacific Seacraft.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 07/18/2006 10:36:20

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2006 : 13:30:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 Rake forward to reduce weather helm/rounding up.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
DUH!

We all know you knew, your fingers just didn't do what you knew.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2006 : 14:46:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by djn
 ...I was not reefed. I thought about it but I was on nearly a downwind and was having too much fun...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Keep in mind that the excessive slewing you had, which is caused by the combination of being overpowered and following seas, could cause an unexpected jibe (or gybe) that could damage the rig, decapitate the helmsman (with our boom-end sheeting), and/or cause a broach. Dare I ask if you had a preventer? Being almost out of control seems like fun until something unexpected happens. I love it on a Sunfish, but I try to avoid it on my 5500 lb. sloop.

Edited by - on

djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1561 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2006 : 15:20:52

No, shamefully, I did not have a preventor, but I rigged one today just for that purpose.

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