Association Forum - Racing Question

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Racing Question

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

Member Avatar

USA
1234 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/27/2006 : 07:18:27

Last night at our Wednesday Night beer can race, winds were petty strong with the waves on the verge of whitecaps. I knew we'd have the advantage over many boats, and sure enough, finished first in our class!!! (I think, 3 of us finished real close to each other so we'll see waht the corrected time says) We almost finished first overall but I made one too many onehead errors.

Anwway, to the point; at the start I was leeward of a Hunter 24 WB boat. We are much faster than them in heavier wind, so knew we could pass them. But we would be in their wind shadow for a time. I could point much better than them. In fact, i could have pushed them right out of my way, we were within just a few feet of each other. I think I had right of way, we were both on starboard tack but I was leeward.

What's the proper thing to do? He was preventing me from pointing as high as I could, as I tried to catch the other boats in front of me, but he had me pinned.

All in all, a fantastic race. If I hadn't made a couple of bonehead errors we would have finished first overall. Our stiffest competition last night was an older Hunter 25. They are very comparable to the C25s, it seems, and will prove to be a major challenge in the future.

Ben
Beneteau 361
Viking Kitty
Columbus, Ohio

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2006 : 08:57:54

To me, it depends on whether the Hunter driver is an experienced racer. If so, then you should hail him, saying, two or three times, "I'm coming up!" Then slowly steer to windward, forcing him to gradually point so high that he starts to pinch and lose speed. When that happens, he should tack away. It's his obligation under the rules to stay clear of a leeward boat on the same tack. If the other guy is not an experienced racer, I wouldn't get that aggressive with him.

Since you can outrun and out-point him, another alternative would be to bear off until you're at least two boat lengths to leeward of him. Doing so should also increase your speed, which should enable you to pull forward of him slightly. Then, when you start pointing high again, you should be able to continue pulling ahead of him, and eventually point up across his bow. It's important to get ahead of his bow wave before you get close alongside his boat. If you don't, his bow wave will have the same effect as if it was a small curb, and your boat won't be able to get over it.

Another alternative would be to slow your boat down enough so that he can pull ahead of you. (See my article on racing tips, for ideas on how to "put on the brakes.") When your bow will clear his transom, then tack across his transom and sail a couple of boat lengths to windward of him, and then tack back. That way, you can take advantage of your superior speed and pointing ability. As long as he has you pinned down to leeward, you are limited to his speed and his pointing ability. In essence, you're giving up a couple of boatlengths and a little time in order to get clear air and freedom to maneuver. If you have better speed and pointing ability, the trade-off is worth it.

Remember that you're not just racing him. You're racing against the whole fleet. All the time that he's holding you back, the rest of the fleet is gaining on you.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 07/27/2006 09:05:12

Ericson33
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
892 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2006 : 09:49:32

Leeward boat has the right of way, Windward has to stay clear. I had this happen to me last year and I was the windward boat. We were right at the start and another Capri 25 Lee-bowed us (this is where the leeward boat is coming up to the line on port and tacks right in front of you, giving them ROW) At this point he started to luff the boat back up into the wind pinching for the line. and we had to stay clear of him so we tacked to port a couple of lenths then back to starboard.

In accordance with the Leeward and Windward definition, both boats are on starboard tack, therefore rule 11 applies as soon as they are overlapped and the blue boat (leeward) will have right of way at that time. At the moment when the overlap begins, Red must begin to keep clear and shall react to the luffing of the blue boat.

Edited by - on

MattL
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2006 : 10:16:22

I thought that a boat couldn't just tack in fron to you to gain starbord rights. They have to be already moving in that direction to have rights.

Edited by - on

Ericson33
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
892 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2006 : 13:31:47

The Lee Bow:

Why lee bow?
A lee bow is when you cannot cross legally and your team executes a tack ahead and to leeward of the on coming boat.
Good reasons to lee bow someone include:
1) When the other boats are overstood on the layline.
2) You want to protect the favored side of the course -- i.e., there has been gains on the left, (possibly more velocity) so you lee bow to force the other boat away so that you can continue left.
4) You are headed or sailing away from the velocity.
3) When it would be way too big of a duck or too many ducks.
4) When the starboard tacker is on the layline and you cannot cross them.
5) In flat water.
6) To preserve a lane of clear air because if you ducked you would have to sail a long way to find a lane of clear air in which to tack in. This very much applies in bigger fleets.

Bad times to lee bow!
1) In light air -- you lose speed and get rolled!
2) In chop -- you lose a lot of speed and again risk being rolled.
3) When you are on a lift !
4) When you are close to the port layline -- if you lee bow somebody you will be pinned by them until you either force them to tack or they tack.
5) When you are not up to speed from a previous tack.
6) When you want to go fast a lee bow will tend to slow both boats down which is a net loss to the rest of the fleet.
7) When later in the series you do not want to risk any chance of a foul.

Executing The lee bow:

The Best way to lee bow someone is basically just about be able to cross them. As a tacking boat you have to keep clear of a boat on a tack , (racing rule #13). You have to be on the new close hauled course before the boat on a tack has to alter course at all.
The Boat on a tack with right of way is bound by rule # 16 - changing course -- she has to give the tacking boat room to keep clear and both boats are bound by rule #14 avoiding contact and causing serious damage.
Your goal is to finish your tack so that once you are up to speed you are "bow out" on the other boat and can slowly squeeze them off. Once you have legally completed your tack, (assumed a close hauled course) without them having to alter course to avoid, you will acquire right of way as a leeward boat, (rule # 11) and be entitled to luff the windward yacht, ( as long as you give room to keep clear) as the yachts overlap going to windward.

When you are lee bowing make sure the boat is totally up to speed and that you tack in a flat spot and not in chop. Also - look over your shoulder and make sure you are not going to tack into bad air! The forward and middle crew should be looking for lanes , (gaps) of clear air and flatter water in which to tack into.

Beware of tacking in the two length zone!
This is a classic way to lose a regatta in a protest! If you are tacking from port to starboard in the two length zone remember you are bound by rule # 18 . 3 A and B. You must fulfill your obligations under rule #13 (while tacking) plus you must not cause the other boat to sail above a close hauled course and if they overlap to leeward you must give them room to pass the mark. By tacking in the two length zone you are essentially limiting your rights.

It is smarter to lee bow outside the two length zone and thus you will retain luffing rights to make it around the mark by going head to wind if necessary.

Avoid the crash tack or panic duck ! !
Keep looking under the boom and through the Genoa and mainsail window, (if you have one) to see boats coming early and remember the big picture of where you want to go on the course. The key thing when lee bowing or ducking another boat is not to get tunnel visioned trying to beat that one boat! Remember you have a fleet to race against and so pinching somebody off may be a net loss in speed to 30 other boats! Lee bow for strategic and tactical reasons..... and if in doubt -- duck!

Team communication:
Get together with your team and go over tactical situations that would require a lee bow or duck and look at the rules (some have been mentioned) that apply. The key thing is for your team to anticipate and have a communication dialogue that keeps you all on the same page and going fast.

Best of luck on the race course and have fun.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2006 : 13:48:31

Everything Steve said works. You need to always be cognoscente of where you are, who you are really racing and what your boat can do. I’d probably drive the hunter up head to wind as we start to roll him. Once he goes high enough to almost luff, foot off quickly – ease sails and then trim back in. Do not take him up so high he auto tacks. Also announce to him that he needs to keep his bow up. This should give you enough speed to break over his bow and will lose too much ground. You’ll also get a better separation by stalling him. If it is going to take you more than 3 minutes to pass the guy, footing off would be the only option. Sitting in his gas for even that long is tough.

If the other side of the course if favored and you need to get there – then slow her down and tack. – But that in my mind would need a seriously favored side.

As you take the guy up, he is going to verbally give you a bunch of proper course mumbo jumbo; especially if he doesn’t know his rules very well. Tell him there isn’t any such thing as an obligation to sail your proper course. And he needs to find it in the rulebook. He won’t be able to because it is one of the biggest misread sections of the rulebook. You are only obligated to not sail above your proper course. Just make sure you do not go head to wind.

Chris - you cannot take them beyond head to wind

Matt - if the boom is over, they are on starboard, there is no obligation for speed. But in this instance both boats were already on starboard.

Edited by - on

Ericson33
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
892 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2006 : 14:13:23

Chris - you cannot take them beyond head to wind.

This was before the start of the race during the countdown, I think we had under 30 seconds to the gun. There was no proper coarse yet as the race had not started, and he was heading right for the pin side of the line. We were coming to the line at full speed when this happened, He tacked, Luffed, causing us to luff quickly, He stalled the boat, But did not tack in front of us, we had to tack to stay clear. This was last year right after I put the boat back into the water after spending 6 months repairing the hull and paint. Believe me I was going to keep clear.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2006 : 21:08:41

Chris is right, I didn't read his entire post and didn't know all the situations. My fault on that.

Ben - as for your question. I did some further research because I wasn't completely sure of myself. Much of what I am typing in this is paraphrased from Dave Perry's book "understanding the racing rules of sailing" I highly recommend it for anybody at any level of racing. It puts everything into basic terminology.

An overlapped boat can do either 2 things when they are leeward. They still have right of way, however depending on how the overlap was obtained they can either Sail head to wind or they can sail no higher than their proper course.

In order to determine which (17.1 rrs) applies relies on 5 factors -
1. are the boats overlapped
2. are the hulls within 2 hull lengths of each other (leeward boats hull length)
3. Whether the leeward boat obtained overlap from clear astern while within two hull lengths of each other
4. Is the windward boat subject to rule 13 (tacking etc.)
5. Whether you've started i.e. visual signal is down

(these due not apply while rounding marks different rule which shuts off rule 17)

If your overlap was obtained in a way other than these, and it sounds like it was - you where overlapped at the start -- you can sail all the way up to head to wind. Case number 17 also states that if you can point higher, then you might force the windward boat to go beyond head to wind.

In that case - I would have forced the hunter up until he had to tack to get out of the way, or he had to tack because you were leebowing him and rolling him. As you started to move up the course you tell him you have the overlap and he needs to keep his bow up. If he doesn't flag him, yell protest and foot off to get around him. If he does you scoot on past. If he doesn't do his turns, then you'll get him in the protest room and it will never be a problem again.

again I highly recommend the book.

and this advice from CS is top notch

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Team communication:
Get together with your team and go over tactical situations that would require a lee bow or duck and look at the rules (some have been mentioned) that apply. The key thing is for your team to anticipate and have a communication dialogue that keeps you all on the same page and going fast<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Your crew should now exactly what to do if you say duck. They should know exactly what to do if you tell them Pinch mode or if you say we are going up to foot off for clear air. We call it a push. One word command or in the case of a push or other maneuver the word and a "now". Gelling as a single unit can save a lot of seconds over the course of a race.

dw

Edited by - Champipple on 07/28/2006 08:25:56

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 07/28/2006 : 06:47:54

Thanks everyone for the excellent lesson! I'm going to have to go to the library and see if they have the sailboat racing book mentioned. Just reading all your responces got my adrenaline going again!

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 07/28/2006 : 08:24:06

That's a book that you want on the shelf...I reference it weekly during the racing season. The link below is the specific link to the product via our affiliate program with amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0974105872/catalina25250-20?creative=327641&camp=14573&adid=1MHWZ70943XBMZDQHM52&link_code=as1

Edited by - on

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.