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cat1951
Admiral

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USA
636 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/04/2006 : 23:06:44

The recent heat wave has got me thinking about getting a portable air conditioning unit for when we are at the dock. The West Marine version that sits in the forward hatch is about $850 and that is when it is on sale. A local ad for Pep Boys had in it a couple of portable ones on wheels for around $350 - $400. The only difference between the two was the BTU rating. Has anyone tried any one of these units or something similar. I intend to use it only at the dock where it could be stored in the locker and we have 110v service. $850 just seems like a lot to pay for cool air.

Mike
Grand Lake, OK
N.O. Catalina 25 #4849
In my opinion 75% of the earth is water for a reason. That's why I sail.

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2006 : 06:38:56

Having just completed installing a built in A/C unit ($2,000) I would say it is well worth it. Your situation of being able to keep the portable unit at the dock would make it very viable. Factors that affected our decision to go the installed route included.
.. Thought of carrying the portable unit around the boat.
.. Storage, another thing to hide in the cabin somewhere(big)

Either way, the ability to cool off is a huge benefit here in SoFla.
Well worth the $$$ and effort.
Portable = less $$$$ and less effort (till you have to move it.)

Paul

Edited by - on

cat1951
Admiral

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USA
636 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2006 : 07:46:18

Paul,
I have read your updates on your install and it was your comments that really got me thinking. I know our recent heat wave has been somewhat unusual. (Well not as much here as other parts of the country.) And our friends at the marina say that late July and August when the winds are down and the heat is up is like the January and February parts up north. It's time for projects, our just staying indoors. I would still like to visit the boat and stay aboard for a day or two if we could cool down the cabin just a little. We already have a fan and will be installing port draperies in the next week or two. A small portable would work great for us if it would do the job. I happened to see the owners a couple of slips down install the hatch air conditioner a couple of weeks ago. It took two of them and I am not sure that on a C25 that I would like it just above my head where we sleep.

Edited by - on

Jonathan Cuff
Navigator

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Cayman Island
173 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2006 : 08:53:17

Hi

We tried out the Cruisair carry on unit (works through the forward hatch) and that worked really well. The trouble is that you need shorepower, or at least a 2000 watt generator. Where we live (Grand Cayman) a/c would be really useful, and make us far more inclined to sleep on the boat particularly in the summer months. The Cruisair unit is quite bulky and I wouldn't opt for it on a permanent basis.

We tried the Kooleraire unit which attached to a 25 qt cooler and as predicted that did nothing. I'm wondering whether a really small window a/c can be fabricated to fit in the space of say two of the hatch boards and then connected to a Honda 2000 generator on a transom platform.

Cruisair have new units which we've seen in the cuddy of a Boston Whaler 320 Outrage. (The company I work for are Boston Whaler dealers www.harbourhousemarina.com) This is a very small unit which works off a separate battery system and if you charge it from shore power you can get about 8 hours a/c off it. I guess the issue with that is where you would put the extra batteries. Even with twin Verado 275hp's the alternator's don't crank out enough to keep it charged!

I just know we'd use the boat a whole heap more if we could sort something out!

Cheers Jonathan

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2006 : 08:55:24

Paul, does the condensate pan dump water in your bilge when you sail? My understanding is that a true marine AC generates a wet bilge, is that true?

As for the portables, I have never seen a cruiseair that was not for sale. There is a better unit called a "suitcase" it is a true marine portable that uses water as the heat exchange medium. The suitcase are really good units.

Of course you can do it for about $100 the way that I did in my quarterberth. See the window unit in the bulkhead? It does require ventilation by two fans and an empty sail locker, (stuff can be on thhe shelf).

Edited by - on

britinusa
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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2006 : 10:33:26

Frank,
Yep, we dump the condensate directly to the bilge. We found that it really is not a lot of water (not enough to pumpout after a full nights use). We're toying with finding a bottle that will fit behind the portapotti. We could easily dump the contents into the bathroom sink before turning in and again 1st thing in the morning.

Paul

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2006 : 12:04:39

I think this speaks to the ever present underlying issue with an international board, we all live someplace different. My two trips to Florida exposed me to humidity that was inconceivable to me. Condensation on the walls of the elevator, rubber cover sheets in the hotel. It is possible that water in the bilge in Florida has no effect on the interior of the boat since the air is possibly saturated anyway. Here water in the bilge would raise the humidity in the boat and might generate mildew. Anyway the idea of any moisture in the bilge weirds me out.

Edited by - on

cat1951
Admiral

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USA
636 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2006 : 17:11:56

Here are the two units that I am considering. I have to see what type of disposal system there is for the condensation, but since we are only going to be using it at the dock with 110v, it just might be the ticket. If you look on the left side of the flyer, they are about 1/4 of the way down. There is a 9,000btu unit that cools 250 sq ft and a 12,000 unit that cools 400 sq feet. And they are offering a rebate on both and they come with remotes.

http://pepboys.shoplocal.com/pepboys/default.aspx?action=browsepageflash&storeid=2315086&rapid=298313&prvid=PepBoys-060730&promotioncode=PepBoys-060730&fsid=127992894200908477

Edited by - on

Ericson33
Admiral

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USA
892 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2006 : 17:49:17

Mike, I think that a normal window unit could be installed backwards into a hatch board. I have been also looking into this for our boat. I want a unit that could be easy to pick up and be stored easy, so I have been looking at the smaller units around 100.00. I would just build a hatch board and mount it backwards. It would only be used at night if we stay overnight on the boat. Check the power at the dock also, we can only pull 8 amps, or it throws a breaker.

Edited by - on

cat1951
Admiral

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USA
636 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2006 : 18:13:23

Thanks Chris, I will check what size the circuit breaker is on our power. BTW: Will be installing the furler next weekend and then having the jib cut to size by Roger. Thanks Again.

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2006 : 19:34:48

Mike, I own a 250 so the volume inside is a little more than my C25 do to the larger topside and no partions in the interior. The last cruise in June I used a Fetters 5200 with remote I purchased at Wally Mart and my 2000 watt generator for the first time. It was great. The temperature was in the 90's during the day and high 70's those two nights. The generator only holds one gallon of fuel and runs for four hours so the plan was to start cooling around 2000, refill the tank at 2400 and just let it stop when it ran out of gas around 0400. Well it ended up that I got up at 0200 and shut it off because the temperatur in the boat aft berth was 66 and I was freeezing since I only brought two sheets. The second night I cranked it up at 2200 and shut it down a 0100. The point here is I think 5200 -5400 btu is plenty for our size boats. The unit sits on the anchor locker and fits into a chute I made that feeds the conditioned air down the front hatch. I have a 12" 12v box fan that sits below it and moves the air to the rear of the boat. The box fan also comes from Wally Mart ($12.50) and can run on batteries or a plug that fits in a lighter power plug. I still have a few things to do on the chute to make it function better, but when finished I will post pictures.

Edited by - frog0911 on 08/05/2006 19:38:07

cat1951
Admiral

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USA
636 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2006 : 19:45:20

Thanks Frog, I will take a look at Wallyworld and if I decide on the ones at Pep Boys, I think the smaller 9,000 btu unit would be more than enough. I have a standard interior and will be adding a queen size aerobed in the main cabin after I fashion a cross support between the settees. I measured today and will only need to shorten the table a little bit and it will fit crossways on supports that I will attach to the vertical fiberglass lower front of the settee on port and starboard. Using the table means that I do not have to have spare supports on board and the table can stow in its normal place against the bulkhead. This is a winter project that I have planned. I plan on including pictures as it progresses later this year.

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2006 : 20:21:19

I bought a Cruiseair hatch unit on ebay last year. It works . . . ok. It's output is less than overwhelming, but given time, it will cool the boat down pretty well. I had to take one of the handles off to get it to pass upwards through the forward hatch. The canvas bag that surrounds the unit and slides over the hatch is disconcerting at first, but I have to keep remembering that cool air sinks, so it doesn't compromise the cooling in a significant way. The other weird thing about it is that the bulkhead separating the head from the vee-berth partially blocks the flow of air from the AC. The vee-berth gets plenty cool if you sleep there (the unit is also very quiet), but the boat is less cool in the saloon unless you run fans.

The thing is ridiculously priced, but it's pretty convenient. We store it in the vee, since we sleep in the dinette converted to queen.

Brooke

Edited by - Brooke Willson on 08/05/2006 20:22:08

esailor
Navigator

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USA
118 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2006 : 21:32:47

Check this out I saw it on an Oday site. BAck when I was looking at different boats.

http://www.sailboatowners.com/upload/display.tpl?folder=73176767101&fno=79

Edited by - on

cat1951
Admiral

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USA
636 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2006 : 23:46:26

It sure beats the $850.00 that WM wants for the one that is made for the hatch. I also fly R/C planes and we do the same with that hobby. If you have to buy from the hobby shop, so be it. It is always good to help keep the local guy in business. But when you have to pay $3-$4 for a couple of nuts and bolts, ole yankee ingenuity is the only way to go.

I do like the looks of the units that are in the Pep Boy's flyer because they are both vertical in nature. That way I can store which ever one I choose in the dock locker. There isn't a lot of space with all the other stuff in there.

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2006 : 08:06:36

I can confirm the BTU requirement. Our unit is 5,000 and I wish they made a 3,000 unit!
We have a Subaru Robin 1700 W generator. It too only holds just over a gallon of fuel, but it ran from 23:00 through 07:00 (when I turned it off) on a single fill. It has a 'tortoise' setting which minimizes fuel consumption according to load.

Paul

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2006 : 10:21:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by cat1951
 Here are the two units that I am considering. I have to see what type of disposal system there is for the condensation, but since we are only going to be using it at the dock with 110v, it just might be the ticket. If you look on the left side of the flyer, they are about 1/4 of the way down. There is a 9,000btu unit that cools 250 sq ft and a 12,000 unit that cools 400 sq feet. And they are offering a rebate on both and they come with remotes.

http://pepboys.shoplocal.com/pepboys/default.aspx?action=browsepageflash&storeid=2315086&rapid=298313&prvid=PepBoys-060730&promotioncode=PepBoys-060730&fsid=127992894200908477
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

A marine environment is special, your lack of insulation and unrelenting exposure to the sun make the BTU requirements on your lake very high. There are some rules to designing an air conditioner that are occasionally ignored for the sake of reduced application with the benefit of unique features. These portables are violating a design requirement by using inside air to exhaust heat. In a proper AC the inside air recirculates and is continually chilled until the desired temp is reached. The heat exchanger is outside and uses outside air to to cool the heat exchanger. This is an efficient design. The single tube roll-arounds use inside air to cool the heat exchanger and blow it outside, in a house with huge volume this is marginally smart but the benefit of the portability balances the equation, that is not the case on a boat. There are some of these units with dual hoses (they bring in outside air to cool the heat exchanger and exhaust it back out) to address the problem and I would not consider a unit that was not a dual hose unit for a boat. Kind of the opposite to this issue is faced with another "idea". A friend has a window unit that sits in the cockpit with a "plenum" and hose bringing the cooled air inside, the problem is the unit must cool outside air and the inside air is never re-chilled, in this configuration a person would need a 15-18k BTU unit and the others on the docks might complain about the noise and the cost of electricity.
Anyway, the roll-arounds have not done well on boats.

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 08/06/2006 10:23:26

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2006 : 11:18:08

I didn't see any mention of dimensions in the Pep Boys ad. I think those free standing portable A/C units are nearly 3 feet tall. Might check the weight while your at it. I haven't tried to air condition my C-25. (At least not yet.

I'm waiting for the rest of you to work out the details first.

) So far, I like the little suitcase sized water cooled unit for size and portability, and the modified window shaker for economy. A while back, someone on here mentioned a custom built in A/C installation, in a C-25 I think, which seemed to have started by taking apart a small one room self contained unit, and rearanging the pieces to fit in a convenient place (or places) in the boat. Considering the relatively low cost of the smallest window units, one might be able to afford to experiment with taking one apart to see if there's anything to gained by reconfiguring it for use in the boat. I think many, if not all, of those use a single motor for both the evaporator and condensor fans, so it might help to replace that with two fans having separate motors so the evaporator and condensor could be mounted in separate locations.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

DoubleD
1st Mate

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USA
61 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2006 : 16:22:48

I installed a window air conditioner in the bulkhead between the quarter berth and the sail locker. I purchased a 5000btu unit from Home Depot at the end of last season for $49.

I also tried installing it in the forward hatch and the companionway, but it got in the way too much and I got tired of lugging it around.

It works good.

Edited by - on

cat1951
Admiral

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USA
636 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2006 : 18:46:44

Thanks Frank/Leon,
I will look closely at the units I have indicated. In one of the pictures there appears to be a hose, but certainly not 2 also, if they are 3' tall, then that really takes away from their compact size and usability. Since I am not in a major, hurry, my research and decisions will be made taking in all the input I can get. It may very well be that I just put up with the heat. Although we are adding a furler next weekend and the sail locker will be much more roomy than it is today.

Edited by - on

raulpou
Navigator

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144 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2006 : 21:13:59

I use my 5200 BTU Wally world special and it runs great. Very simple, once I am ready to go to bed I mount it on my companionway. I keep my "camper top" up for headroom and close down the canopy to even with the A/C. Stuff a towel on each side for a snug fit and to keep the cool air indside and in no time at all we are freezing our tails off!

Cheap, easy, and boy so necessary for us Floridians!

Edited by - on

albert
Captain

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USA
262 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2006 : 00:53:18

9000 btu may draw too many amps upon compressor startup for use with portable generator.

Remember CO monitor in cabin needed if used with generator.

BTW you can attach an external tank to the generator for multiday runtime.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2006 : 07:08:39

Sunpentown (aka spt) makes a similar unit that has a heater that I am looking at...for my 350 square foot attic. I think even 5200 might even be overkill.

I also Froogled (www.froogle.com) your 12,000 btu unit and found prices far better than Pep Boys...some with shipping included

Edited by - on

cat1951
Admiral

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USA
636 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2006 : 07:44:49

Duane, I did as suggested and looked on Froogle at some of the units. The one here is listed at 30" high by 16"x16". This would be doable as it would fit in my dock locker, and it has some interesting bullet points. One that may be speaking to Frank's point.

-Self-Evaporating Technology: during the cooling or heating process, water is extracted from the air into the unit.
-Most of this water is then recycled and used to cool the cooling coils and make it run more efficiently, cooling as well as energy. It also has an exhaust tube of 5" in diameter.

I could fashion an exhaust support out of starboard that would fit the bottom slot in the companionway. As indicated, I am planning on doing a lot of research before making a final decsion, but all points in this thread are helpful.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2006 : 07:50:47

There is still water run off - just less.

Edited by - on

cat1951
Admiral

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USA
636 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2006 : 08:05:24

Yep, the water run off is my next hurdle. I do not want to use the bilge pump by letting it drain into the bilge. The bilge has been dry as a bone and I would like to keep it that way. And the 3.2 pint container isn't very large.. I would think you would be emptying it continually. One thing a could consider is building a shelf for the top step of the companionway, then running a drain hose in the cockpit and out the scuppers. AND I need to find out how loud 51 decibels is. According to the product bullets that is the noise level.

Edited by - cat1951 on 08/07/2006 08:06:30

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