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Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/17/2006 : 07:26:43

Hi folks, we had the last race of the summer series last night.

We came in third behind a Lancer 28 that finished waaaay ahead of us, and a Precision 23 that we almost caught at the end. The air was light, and we don't do as well in light air. The Precision and us are tied with 8 points each for second place. How are ties broken?

Also, as I was approaching the committee boat to cross the finish line,a C22 was leeward of us and told us he had right of way. I asked him if he had to give me room, and he said no. I luffed my sails to allow him to pull ahead of me, but he told me to continue on anyway because we weren't competing against each other. Was he correct? Could he have squeezed me out, effectively preventing me from crossing the line, or was I correct in thinking he had to give me room? There was definitely overlap, if that matters. We were slightly ahead of him.

Thanks ya'll!

Ben
Beneteau 361
Viking Kitty
Columbus, Ohio

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 08/17/2006 : 10:46:33

Ben - we race against a Precision 23. We've found that he sails slightly better on a broad reach and in light airs but that he can't point very well. He was kicking our butts at the beginning of the season, but now we watch him carefully and mimic his tactics until we get onto a close hauled tack, where we pull away from him. We've very nearly caught up to him in points.
I'd be interested in hearing about your experiences with 'your' Precision 23.

I'm still a racing newbie but I'd say you were not in a position where you had to give way. Engaged and slightly ahead - I'd continue on my course if I were in your situation.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 08/17/2006 : 11:48:22

Ties are broken by who did better in the last race of the series.

The leeward boat, in any class, has every right to "take you up" and make you luff or tack. Start or finish line is not a mark where overlap applies.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 08/17/2006 : 14:00:48

Jim - you are a little bit correct..
Ties are broken by 1. who got the most 1sts
if still tied 2. who got the most 2nds
if still tied through 3rds, 4ths etc., then who did best in the last race is the final tiebreaker.
Derek

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 08/17/2006 : 14:09:40

Darn it Derek ya beat me to it - well....I typed it, so I'm posting it anyway

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> How are ties broken?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Ties are broken by who did better in the last race of the series.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Not completely correct Jim -

Ties are broken in the following manner

Number of firsts in the series, number of seconds and so on. If at that point you were still tied then it is the last race.

RRS Appendix A – 8.1 abd 8.2
A8 SERIES TIES
A8.1 If there is a series score tie between two or more boats, each boat’s
race scores shall be listed in order of best to worst, and at the first
point(s) where there is a difference the tie shall be broken in favour of
the boat(s) with the best score(s). No excluded scores shall be used.
A8.2 If a tie remains between two or more boats, they shall be ranked
in order of their scores in the last race. Any remaining ties shall be
broken by using the tied boats’ scores in the next-to-last race and so
on until all ties are broken. These scores shall be used even if some of
them are excluded scores.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Also, as I was approaching the committee boat to cross the finish line,a C22 was leeward of us and told us he had right of way. I asked him if he had to give me room, and he said no. I luffed my sails to allow him to pull ahead of me, but he told me to continue on anyway because we weren't competing against each other. Was he correct? Could he have squeezed me out, effectively preventing me from crossing the line, or was I correct in thinking he had to give me room? There was definitely overlap, if that matters. We were slightly ahead of him.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

What Tack were you on, what tack was he on, when was overlap obtained, was it within two boatlengths of the mark/boat. How far was he from you when he obtained overlap. Without getting real fancy in my reply , the guy has to give you room the majority of the time. By the way, if the line was square and you are on Starboard you would have been better off running behind him than stalling. Especially in a timed handicap (pHRF) race. If you were both on Port, you would have been better off Tacking. Luffing the boat is rarely ever desired after the start of a race.

Get me some more details and I’ll look it up for you.

Edited by - on

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 08/17/2006 : 14:28:35

Thanks everyone. I've tried to illustrate what happened to the best of my memory.

I'm the green boat. We were both pretty close hauled coming at the finish line from an odd angle. I couldn't give room to the blue boat without luffing or bearing away, so I chose to luff. Bad choice maybe.

Anyway, don't want to belabor the issue, I was just curious. One of these darn days I gotta get me that book.

Thanks ya'll. According to the most 1sts rule, we should be second for the series. We'll see what happens.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 08/17/2006 : 15:26:02

Based on your drawing. Overlap appears to be established within the two length zone. The committee boat is no longer a starting boat but a mark on the course. If it were the start he could have boxed you out. Otherwise it is a mark on the course that by definition you must pass to a specific side (see definition of “finish” in the rulebook) he must give the inside boat (you) room.

Rule 18 gives you rights to room to pass that mark and to tack or gybe as necessary.

Incidentally, your quickest course here is to tack around the boat to cross the line.

Few items of note and a few questions

1. Was that a downwind start or did the wind really shift 180 degrees?

2. Is your committee boat always to port of the line or was there a different start line for this particular course? (it says start/finish but the drawing is a bit odd)
3. What kind of course did you have?

Just asking because that diagram indicates a few oddities that would normally only occur with local parameters (weird lake shape, odd current, crazy course configuration, other event on the lake etc.)

Edited by - on

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 08/17/2006 : 16:49:16

Hi Duane,

No, it was not a downwind start. The start finish line set by the committee boat was, I think, not really well done. The start was a beat to windward, but even from the beginning the start finish line seemed orientated oddly. The course was a 3.2 mile traingle. It's the same course every Wednesday, unless lack of wind dicates having only two marks to make the race end in a reasonable time.

If you ever have a spare Wednesday night, I would love to have you on board with us for a race.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 08/17/2006 : 17:09:23

Ben - buy a copy of Dave Dellenbach's book "Understanding the Racing Rules 2004 - 2008".
It explains every rule in easy to understand terms and has some excellent (and funny) illustrations.
I may be wrong but I think that if you join USSail they send you a rule book and the Dellenbach book at a discount.
Derek

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 08/17/2006 : 17:56:20

I'd still recommend the Perry book...which in my opinion has funnier illustrations. It has a full copy of the rules in it.

Edited by - on

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2006 : 09:33:03

Well the good news is...drum roll...Second Place for the series!!!

I'm pleased. We got second place because we had more first place finishes than the Precision 23. We would have won first for the series if we could have finished first in the final race, but that darn Lancer 28 beats the snot out of everybody.

Hopefully in the Fall Series I get the Blue Flag!!! Then I'll have a complete set!

Thanks everyone who answered my questions!

Edited by - on

djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1561 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2006 : 10:01:26

Good job Ben. Cheers.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2006 : 11:09:47

Nice job Ben. Isn't the Lancer 28 one of those bastard boats with a big outboard, itsn't it a "motorsailer".

Edited by - on

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2006 : 12:16:48

No, this Lanser 28 at any rate is a pretty lean looking racer/cruiser. Rumor has it that the owner modified the keel, which people think helps make his boat faster. I don't know. The guy looks like he's in his 70s, so he may just have 60 years of experience and is teaching us young punks a thing or two about racing. I have beaten him before, but the winds have to be pretty strong for me to even have a chance of beating him.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2006 : 13:04:51

Oh I remember now, they are 28' long and 8' wide, built as a tralersailer. Canadian. That is a lot of waterline on a boat with an 8' beam.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2006 : 13:53:31

Lancer was part C&C design, and part everything else. A wide variety of designers were involved.
I think they were built in Connecticut and California.
They had 28' Powersailer, motorsailer and a trailersailer.

I've been told that the trailersailer is a compromised design because of the shoal draft keel.

If your competitor has a keel that is more than 30" deep, its been modified.
Get your goggles

and swim fins on and go see whats going on down there....and if he has indeed modified his keel, tie on a canvas bucket while you're down there.

Edited by - on

Ericson33
Admiral

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USA
892 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2006 : 17:52:32

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by stampeder
 tie on a canvas bucket while you're down there.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Now that is funny.......

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2006 : 20:06:07

or a plunger!

Edited by - on

SailCO26
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 08/22/2006 : 16:30:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I'm the green boat. We were both pretty close hauled coming at the finish line from an odd angle. I couldn't give room to the blue boat without luffing or bearing away, so I chose to luff. Bad choice maybe.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Based on the drawing and assuming you were close hauled, I'd say the wind was coming from the right side of the drawing, correct? Upwind finishes are pretty normal around here (CO), as are upwind starts - well, when the wind stays the same long enough for the RC to get the race off.

If I understand correctly, other posts are correct stating that if you've got overlap at the 2-boat range to the mark/line, you get room. Tho it then depends on HOW the W/L relationship was established. If the L boat tacked into that position, he has NOT established an overlap and is NOT entitled to room (you still are, but if he were shooting for the pin he's outta luck...). As an aside/extension, the overlap does NOT apply to a boat on P if you're on S - I had some *** try THAT one on me!

Outside the 2-boat range he DOES have the right to luff you up based on R11, Windward/Leeward. If he's not in your fleet and does that, unless he's in dire need of clear air or trying to pinch to make a layline he's just being an a**.

Also, if the L boat acquired the overlap from clear astern (ie he's overtaking the W boat), he does not have luffing rights as he cannot sail above his proper close-hauled course unless he tacks behind W.

Regarding the RC boat, for our lines we always have the RC to the S of the line and the pin to the P. Tho we HAVE had some finishes (upwind) where we hit the line backwards (RC P and Pin S). Sailing in CO...

Please correct me if I'm wrong on any of the above, I'd rather be wrong and be corrected here than corrected in a protest room!

Jim
CP25 #183
Team Short Bus

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 08/22/2006 : 17:55:37

"As an aside/extension, the overlap does NOT apply to a boat on P if you're on S - I had some *** try THAT one on me!"

Except if you are both on port, and you as the outside boat broke an overlap obtained at the two length zone, tacked to starboard after being clear ahead. In that case you still have to give him room even though you are on starboard and he's on port. Other than that you are pretty much correct.... It is really tough to speak of anything in the rules as an absolute (not saying you did)

you pretty much nailed everything else. Also, the above head to wind for the Clear astern only applies if the guy overtaking you from clear astern is doing so within two boat widths... Otherwise he can still take you all the way to china.

Edited by - on

SailCO26
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 08/23/2006 : 09:24:32

Agreed on both counts, you're reply had more specifics than mine did. :) In this case, I was on the S layline (actually just a hair below it, but planning to shoot the mark), my antagonist was on the P layline. We were about equidistant from the mark, so at/or about the zone he hollers for room. Not! He ended up forcing the issue by not giving way, and I had to shoot not only the mark but over him as well. Not worth a protest scene, as once we started dw we dusted him. Justice on the water...

Except if you are both on port, and you as the outside boat broke an overlap obtained at the two length zone, tacked to starboard after being clear ahead.

So far I've yet to see this one, being able to complete the tack to S before interfering with the P tacker, while within 2 boat lengths of the mark. Tho I guess I see where it *could* happen if the inside boat really screwed the pooch! This is probably more of a refinement of the rights "While Tacking" while at a mark, just to keep everyone in line. ;)

Also, the above head to wind for the Clear astern only applies if the guy overtaking you from clear astern is doing so within two boat widths... Otherwise he can still take you all the way to china.

Again, agreed - your post was more explicit than mine. Assuming the scale is reasonably close in the drawing above, they were within 2 lengths to L. But unless we're on more of a reach than close-hauled, he's gonna have a hard time pushing me up from 50' to my L, so I dont worry too much about that one. :)

Jim
Team Short Bus

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