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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Bow Cleat Loose

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redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/09/2006 : 12:35:52

My port bow cleat is a bit loose and wobbles to the touch. This is seems to have happened after riding out gale force winds at anchor. See Anchor Riding Sail post.

Does anyone have experience with how Catalina affixed the forward cleats during the early 80's? I have not tried just tightening it up yet.

Also, the cleat sucks as a mooring line or anchor line chock... But there is no alternative currently available on the foredeck. Does anyone know of an upgrade cleat that is higher off of the deck and perhaps bigger that can be bolted on without drilling holes, etc...???

Sten
Zephyr - C25 #3220 - Swansea, MA

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tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 09/09/2006 : 13:17:41

Hi Sten,

My Cat is an 83 and on one occasion, several years ago, I noticed a loose cleat. I put a screwdriver to it and they've been good to go ever since. Perhaps that should be your first approach to solving your problem.

Val on Calista # 3936, Patchogue, N.Y.

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Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 09/09/2006 : 13:58:14

Sten,

As I recall, the late 70s, early 80s C-25 bow cleats were held on with 1/4-20 machine screws backed by a tiny scrap of thin plywood - a bit light in my opinion. I reused the same cleats (which I agree are a bit small, but adequate). I redrilled the cleats and deck to a tight fit on 5/16-NC machine screws. I replaced the rotted backing with the largest rectangle of 3/16" thick fiberglass I coud fit under there. (There's not a lot of room.) I bedded the new backing plates against the freshly sanded underside of the deck using fiber reinforced epoxy mush. On each 5/16" machine screw, I stacked a fender washer, flat washer, lock washer, and nylon locking nut. I bedded the screws through the deck with either polyurethane (3M 5200) or polysulfide (BoatLife). You don't really need to bed them for weather tightness, but for load sharing between the bolts, hence the emphasis on accurately spaced, snug holes. (The WEST epoxy folks make a strong argument for bedding heavily loaded cleats with epoxy.)

If you'd like to upgrade to one size larger cleats, I say go for it! It's easy. Following the reinforcing steps I outlined above, also fill the unused old hole through the deck with the same epoxy mush while you're installing the new backing plates. If you want to get fanatical about cosmetics, after the epoxy hardens thoroughly, grind a very shallow depression where the old bolt hole was, and dab some gelcoat on it.

I suggest you think twice before replacing the Catalina cleats with chocks, and adding a big cleat or two further in from the edge of the deck. First of all, I don't see a practical way to do it with a fair lead without a taught line blocking access to the anchor locker. Also with that configuration, the section of nylon line between the chock and cleat will stretch and rebound with every wave and gust which surges the boat back on its ground tackle. In doing so, the line will saw and chafe at the chock much worse than it would if attached directly to a cleat at the very edge of the deck. I agree it's fun to modify these boats. However before making any change, repeat the following mantra: "The folks who designed these boats weren't fools."

-- Leon Sisson

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sweetcraft
Admiral

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USA
816 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2006 : 00:17:56

I made changes to the bow cleats after seeing the hull bow fitting, the u bolt in the hull, pull out about a quarter of an inch when pulling the boat on to the roller trailer. It was backed by a small block of Douglas Fir which crushed from the pull. I shaped a piece of oak and used resin and a thickener, fiber glass powder, to set it in place and then redrilled the holes for a 1/2" u-bolt and filled in the hole of the smaller u-bolt and epoxied. Turned out good and haven't had any more problems but this led me to rethink the stock insulation of all the cleats. Like Leon said the 1/4" bolts backed with a small piece of ply and washers needs upgrading.

I used a 1/4" plate of aluminum after making a pattern from cardboard. I had a large piece of aluminum so I made one backing piece that took care of all the fittings at the bow except the forestay. This included the cleats and the bow pulpit. I removed all the bolts installed the aluminum with a generous layer of thickened resin and drilled the holes after the resin hardened. Used the 3M 5200 for the bolts and then secured using washers and the nuts. This might be a little over kill but it's out of sight and has kept me secure once in a 50 mph thunder shower without a cleat coming loose. I did use aluminum flat stock for the other cleats and oak secured with resin for the winches and pulpits. All this work is never seen except by other Cat 25 owners who ask and look. It makes me feel good to show and tell. Have a good time.

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redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2006 : 10:00:06

Many thanks for the knowledge and advice. I will check into it.... I do however disagree with Leon regarding the following.

"I agree it's fun to modify these boats. However before making any change, repeat the following mantra: "The folks who designed these boats weren't fools."

One, modifying boats should not be necessary if the designers really weren't fools. Two, after owning my Cat 25 for 5 years I am less than pleased with the overall construction and design of some very critical components - like the bow cleat. Nearly every mooring line I have tried to attach her to has been difficult or impossible to squeeze in under the bow cleat. Imagine having to run a line thru the mooring line and attach it to both cleats? This obviously creates a very differenct kind of chafing problem. Securing an anchor rode is less than optimal because you can't really get a decent wrap on it. I resort to using light line to secure the primary cleat and criss-cross to the other cleat as insurance. With all due respect to Mr. Butler and the collective, did they make mooring lines thinner 25 years ago? 1/4" bolts backed with ply? I have looked at the new Cat 25's and of course feel that they are even worse in terms of construction and esthetics. From what I understand, my '82 is among the last of the hand laid up models built - which is comforting given the conditions I find myself in sometimes. My wife likes to say, "We put the small in small craft advisories"

Cheers

sten

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2006 : 14:47:00

What are some 25 ft boats that are better suited for what we put our Catalina 25s through?

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mashedcat
Navigator

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USA
194 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2006 : 21:17:38

I agree with sten. the whole foredeck is awkward for anchoring to say the least. the new cleats that catalina sells are a little better, but still they need good backing. I use both cleats when anchoring as well. i wish there was room forward of the anchor locker for a cleat midships and then use chocks both sides.

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2006 : 08:22:49

I think Tanzers are really well made but these cleats look worse than ours.
[url="http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/TANZER-25_W0QQitemZ250027993283QQihZ015QQcategoryZ63730QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem"]Tanzer 25[/url]

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stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2006 : 15:51:03

I found some loose screws in my deck cleats this spring, so I hand tightened them with a screwdriver and have rechecked them a couple times since. They have all held and there has been no slippage.

I anchor out every weekend for two or three nights, the foredeck cleats are smallish for my anchor line but they do hold. The cleats are not big enough to do more than two turns, so I use both cleats.

I'm on a mooring ball in a lake that is known for its wind, and my mooring ball is very close to the 'freeway' where the local idiots in powerboats drive as fast and as close to my boat as possible - my '81 is frequently getting hit with bow waves...so I rely on my deck cleats and bow eye. I've looked into larger deck cleats and additional deck cleats. From what I've seen, you will need to drill if you go bigger.

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oldsalt
Admiral

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USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2006 : 18:55:13

Taking into account that old Frank built and sold around six thousand Catalina 25s and almost all of them are still afloat today, I wouldn't be calling him a fool who built poorly constructed vessels.

In fact, Butler constantly upgraded the line as the years passed; better chainplates, heavier rigging, stainless spreader sockets, lead keels with stainless keel bolts (from '83 on), high quality stainless pulpits and pushpits (mine look absolutely new after 23 years on salt water), improved stemhead fittings,etc.

A loose cleat on a 24 year old boat isn't really that big a deal, the same thing is might even happen on a Swan.

Considering that they were built to a price, our Catalina 25's are pretty darn well put together.

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2006 : 14:15:16

Those tanzers have chocks though, so less load is going to constantly be on the cleat itself....

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2006 : 14:50:05

Are those chocks clear up at the end of the toe rail? With the cleats aft of the anchor locker? We could do that on our boats by replacing the cleats with chocks and putting new cleats aft of the locker.

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2006 : 06:49:10

From what I can see in the picture, and now after a second view I'm questioning myself, there are chocks way forward by the stem. You'd probably cross bowlines back to the cleats from there. You could still probably do that on our boat, but I can’t envision without a picture whether the rail would allow for it. Especially on the earlier models.

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The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.