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86Cat25
Deckhand

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USA
22 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/12/2006 : 17:27:24

What are the advantages of having an adjustable back stay on my c25 besides being able to take tension off the rig when its not under sail?

Andrew Miller
Niceville, FL
"Es Muy Bueno"
'86 TR/FK

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2006 : 18:48:14

I harden my backstay when I leave my boat. I want my rig tight if a storm comes. While sailing my backstay hardens/softens the forestay for wind conditions.

Edited by - on

TRogers
1st Mate

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USA
90 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2006 : 18:58:05

For the person really trying to fine tune their sails, it helps your optimize your sail shape for different wind levels.

I'm no expert (but I'm learning), but I think it was tighten it up to flatten (depower) the sails (both main and fore), loosen to get better curve (power up).

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86Cat25
Deckhand

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USA
22 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2006 : 20:00:26

So by tighting it i should be able to sail further into the wind but by making it looser i will get more power and be faster?

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2006 : 20:43:58

"So by tighting it i should be able to sail further into the wind but by making it looser i will get more power and be faster?"

Tightening the backstay will generally increase pointing ability. Loosening the backstay will often increase 'power' in the sail but will NOT necessarily increase boatspeed.

You can think of 'power' in a sail in somewhat same way as using gears in a car... low gear gives lots of power... but not much speed. High gear gives speed but not as much power.

Just like a car, being in the right 'gear' for the situation gives the best performance.

In general, tighten the backstay for beating, loosen for running... and have it somewhere in between for reaching.
Within the above concepts, heavier air - tighter... lighter air, looser.

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2006 : 20:54:49

Andrew: hardening the backstay tightens the forestay which both depowers it a little as well as makes you able to point higher (closer to the wind). It also bends the mast and depowers the mainsail by tightening the luff. Frank's practice is contrary to every piece of advice I've ever seen -- I loosen the backstay when I'm not sailing. It takes the tension off the rig and lets it rest. In a storm, which puts more tension on a boat, you want to reduce the rest of the tension, not increase it. You loosen and lengthen docklines before a hurricane -- it's the same principle for the rigging.

Brooke

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2006 : 21:15:43

In Kansas we have a lot of high wind, I don't like my rig pumping in high wind. I think it is hard on the rigging to have it flex and jerk around. Sometimes we just have to do what we are comfortable with, this is what makes me have confidence that my boat is secure. Remember that I use hardened springlines also, my boat is never loose in the slip.

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2006 : 21:40:03

I'm with Frank on this one. On "TSU" I have a tuff-luff forestay which increases the windage considerably. As I also carry 10" forestay sag (with the backstay off), if I don't tighten the backstay whenever I leave the boat (and thus take the sag out of the forestay) the 60 mph winds we can get through the marina would flog that tuff-luff to pieces.

Derek

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Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2006 : 02:56:21

Obviously, to each his own. To quote one reference, Bob Bond, "The Handbook of Sailing," Alfred A. Knopf, 1980, p. 167: "When you are not sailing, the backstay tension should be slackened." Or the Catalina Direct catalog, p. 4.34: " . . . let your boat relax while she's in the slip by taking the tension off the rig." I'll see what the C25 handbook says when I go to the boat this weekend. Most importantly, I ease my backstay on the advice of Jim Scott of Scott Sails, who installed my furler and cut my Genoa. Not that he knows much, having won the Newport to Bermuda race once, having made sails for Dennis Connor, and whose son crews for Dennis.

And, having been through a couple of hurricanes and several tropical storms here on the Chesapeake with my backstay eased, I'll stick with what the (other) experts say. Frank, you can use hardened springlines because your lake is not tidal. Hardened dock or springlines here in a spring or neap tide or, worse, a big storm, can pull pilings out of the bottom or rip cleats from decks, like they did around here last week when Ernesto blew through.

Brooke

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2006 : 07:36:16

All of which points to the fact that there are huge differences in our sailing experience based primarily on location - inland lake vs. ocean, Great Lakes vs. inland lake, etc. Sometimes it's difficult to visualize and be tolerant of anothers experience when we don't know or understand the conditions in which he or she sails.

In my case, I sail on Lake Superior a lot, but moor my boat on an inland lake, Portage Lake, which has access on both ends to Lake Superior. Portage is a large inland lake, about 6 miles wide and 15 long. My boat has been tied to its mooring every summer for the last 16 years through some very high winds generating some very nasty chop. I don't have an adjustable backstay so my rig is fairly "tight" all the time, though much looser than before I added a furler. You'd be amazed at how much the boat gets bounced around. The rig has suffered no ill effects though.

So from that perspective I can see where Frank is coming from. I wonder though, how loose is loose. Loose enough for the mast to gyrate and snap back and forth as you often see on daysailers? Or just loose enough to relieve the strain on the standing rigging but not so loose that the mast moves around?

Edited by - aeckhart on 09/13/2006 07:38:22

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5906 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2006 : 09:15:45

I agree with people on both sides of the discussion. I adjusted my headstay with about 8-10" of headstay sag when the backstay adjuster was fully eased, like Derek, and, if a storm like Ernesto blew through, I believe the rig would be jumping and flexing badly. I also agree that the backstay should ordinarily be eased before you leave the boat. So, ordinarily, I would leave the boat with the backstay eased, but, if I expected a major, long-lasting storm like Ernesto, I'd go to the boat and either re-tune the rig, to put equal tension on all the stays, or at least apply enough tension with the backstay adjuster to take most of the slack out of the headstay.

That might sound like a lot of effort just to prepare for a storm, but Ernesto reportedly blew 50-65 knot winds, and it lasted for about a full day. Two roller furling jibs at my marina came unfurled and were shredded, a lifeline stanchion was torn out of the deck of another boat, a piling was broken, and some docklines broke. The jackstands supporting a boat on the hard started to come loose, and the marina operator had to move the travelift over to it to prevent it from falling during the storm. When the wind is that strong, and blows that long, it can find any weakness.

If you use a backstay adjuster, you should normally keep it eased, but you should at least tension it when a major storm blows through. Likewise, if you have a roller furling jib, you should remove it when a major storm blows through. Those are preparations that you should make for a big storm, just like doubling your docklines.

Edited by - on

86Cat25
Deckhand

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USA
22 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2006 : 17:35:37

Thanks
Backstay = controversy. got it!

Completely off topic here but i read somewhere about an outhaul on the main used to flatten the foot. I dont think my boat has one so im looking for more information on that?

Edited by - on

roktabija@yahoo.com
Deckhand

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20 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2006 : 17:44:31

Andrew, there are agruments on both sides for a backstay adjuster. Some die hard cruisers point to the fact that a single backstay is far less likely to fail than a multi purchase system. Whereas racers wouldn't be caught dead without the ability to adjust sail shape with a good backstay adjuster. Even if you never race, the ability to crank down hard on the backstay to flatten out the sails adds to the comfort factor in heavy air conditions.

Outhauls - (like Backstay adjusters) gotta have them if you race, added comfort if you don't.

As far as tension when not sailing, we always easy off the backstay completely, then pull it in to where we just start to feel tension.

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2006 : 07:54:02

Andrew,

Catalina Direct sells a four-part wire-rope internal outhaul and an all line 2-part external outhaul. I installed the internal outhaul when I bought a new loose-footed main two years ago. You'd be amazed with what you can do with your main in light and heavy air with this combination.

Edited by - aeckhart on 09/14/2006 07:55:44

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2006 : 09:15:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by 86Cat25
 Completely off topic here but i read somewhere about an outhaul on the main used to flatten the foot. I don't think my boat has one so im looking for more information on that?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

An outhaul is very easy to add. I have a 4:1 outhaul led to the cabintop that was put together with odds and ends from my spare parts collection.

Catalina Direct has a reasonably priced ($68.95) [url="http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=502"]4:1 Outhaul Kit[/url].

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