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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2006 : 11:27:36

I'm so glad I went Thursday. The weather was perfect, and today it's the absolute pits! I got a quote from Cruising Direct on a new main and 40% genoa, made of 7 oz. North sailcloth, and it was such a good price I ordered both. Keep your eyes peeled for a display with red and black Ronstan foul weather gear on sale. The price is $90.00, and includes both the coat and bib pants. They're "last year's model," and very nice coastal wear for a price that's hard to beat. I'm sorry I don't have the name of the seller at the moment, but I'll try to post it for anyone who's interested. Also, you never know when the sellers will run out of the best bargains, but check the Boater's World tent. They had some good bargains yesterday.

Edited by - on

dave holtgrave
Captain

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USA
427 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2006 : 15:58:52

friday sucked
wind was tuff with cold temps.

boat dealers not friendly at all. had to beg the groups of sales and reps for information or pricing, too busy talking to themselves.
if they don't want you on there boats, they shouldn't bring them.
bad experience with Sabre. the guy insisted we went down the stairs the wrong way and made a big deal about it.
what was sad was i was entering boats before he was born.
oh well, after i told the guy in the tent who was from sabre,he removed the salesman.

boy, the weather sucked. we left the show at 245pm and drove to kent island where we are staying.wall to wall traffic.16 miles in 1 hour and 45 minutes.
then when we got to kent island they were shooting rader instead of opening another lane east bound.

most small tents with vendors were closed.

no deals on anything today
very disappointing.
sorry we bothered the vendors.
dave holtgrave
5722 sk/tr.
sailing carlyle lake in southern illinois

Edited by - on

Bubba
Admiral

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USA
542 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2006 : 21:01:19

Don't blame you for leaving. I hung around the Catalina area at 4:00 but as far as I could tell, no other association members showed up. The owners association booth wasn't a booth at all - just a box with a banner over it, out in the rain, abandoned. Glad I didn't volunteer for THAT!

Edited by - on

Justin
Admiral

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502 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2006 : 23:42:51

Wow, well I'm glad to hear that I didn't miss much Friday and decided to wait. Monday is looking nice, sunny and around 75F, so hopefully that will make it more enjoyable.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3467 Posts

Response Posted - 10/08/2006 : 23:16:14

My wife and I were there on Friday. We arrived around 1000am and left around 3pm. We had on our foul weather gear as did many others. I was surprised as to how many others were there on Friday considering the rain and windy conditions. Even though it was raining, I enjoyed the show. We saw the Hunters and Catalinas last before we left for the day. You really could not tell who from the Association was there. It was not like we all agreed to where pink carnations and besides...with the wind & rain they would have wilted and been blown away before anyone would have seen them.

We bought some apparel and one of those Sport-A-Seats which have an adjustable back and significant cushion material.

We went aboard a number of boats and were looking forward to also going aboard a Catalina 250 to just compare notes as to how they made it back in 1989 and now-a-days, but it seemed anything smaller than ..27 feet was not in the water but on support stands. This was the case with the Catalinas, Hunters, Compacs and Precisions to name a few. I climbed up one of the staircases (believe it was of the Catalina 250) to go aboard but they had the cover buttoned up. All the other boats that were in the water, we had no problem gaining access. But to board some of them, you had take off your shoes. We skipped those. We had enough to deal with the rain, etc and I was not going to add to the ordeal by taking off my now-soaked thru and thru sneaks...which by the way are now in the washer/dryer and probably will never get the stench out of them. My wife wore those Klogs and ...that seemed the better choice for that day.

Went onto Ocean City that night and then rode the Century ride at the Seagull Century in Salisbury, Md on Saturday. I wimped out of the ride last year because of heavy rains and so this year...I decided to do it even though we had moderate rain all morning and heavy winds throughout the day. Today, before we came home, my wife and I rode our bikes on the Boardwalk in Ocean City (finally good weather) and then on the way back, stopped for another short bike ride thru the Blackwater Natl Wildlife Refuge Park east of Cambridge, Md.

I am off from work tomorrow and it should be a good day - I will be sailing !

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 10/09/2006 : 18:41:17

Vicki and I made it to the show today (Monday). The weather was absolutely perfect, and the Catalina folks were just great. I was disappointed they didn't have a 310 there, since that looks like the boat we'd most likely upgrade to. Vicki liked the 320, and we thought the 309 was a nice upgrade from the 30 (by the way, the 309 and 310 use exactly the same hull. The only difference is layout below). The 350 is gorgeous but too big for us. Went onboard the 470 just for fun -- it's stunning, but, again, MUCH too big for us, unless we were to sell the house and move aboard.

Most amazing boat: Amel 54. Unbelievable woodwork, watertight bulkheads, spacious heads, and, given the control layout, probably able to be singlehanded. Worst boats (the poor McGregor doesn't count): Hunters. Ugly and poorly built. Finish work below is cheap. Runner up: Catalina 250. Sorry, cousins. I had no idea how much smaller that boat is below than a 25. I actually had to look again topside to make sure I wasn't on a C22.

Roamed through the tents, but, as I confessed to Vicki, there's really not much more "Even Chance" needs other than the cushions recovered and ongoing maintenance. That's an argument for buying a new boat, but new boat price lists make the boat title in my desk drawer look all the better. I'm glad we went -- any excuse to visit Annapolis is valid, though we like it better minus a few thousand people, and especially at Christmas.

Brooke

Edited by - Brooke Willson on 10/09/2006 18:47:11

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/09/2006 : 21:29:24

Brooke: A few observations regarding the 250 vs. the 25 (before the 250 folks jump down your throat)... First, if it was a water-ballast model, the headroom is considerably less. Next, I wonder if you're taking into account the size of the enclosed head, which is considerably nicer than the semi-head in the C-25. Next, how about the aft-berth, which is actually a usable double (unlike the quarterberth in the 25)?

All in all, I'd say they are definitely different boats--especially in how they use their overall space down below. Each has its advantages. They look and feel different, and when one gets used to one, the other will not be as nice.

The C-310, on the other hand, is a whole different story!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 10/09/2006 21:31:25

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 10/09/2006 : 22:04:21

Dave: it must have been a water ballast. The head was miniscule -- about four and a half feet high like the rest of the cabin. As for the aft double, I've never thought crawing under the cockpit to listen to water slap under the stern was attractive. I've slept in the quarterberth in my C25 -- it's ok as a sea berth, but better for storage. I prefer the queen bed conversion in the C25 to anything I saw in the C250.

Maybe the keel C250 is more useable below. Evidently, that's not what I saw. The boat I looked at was, in my humble opinion, a major step down from the C25. My hunch is that Catalina decided a 25 foot boat is really just a big daysailer (a not unreasonable conviction), and wanted to encourage people to buy at least a 270 if they're going to spend any appreciable time on board. That would be consistent with the general pattern in the industry pushing bigger boats -- how many times do we see the trade magazines featuring anything smaller than the mid-thirties (Good Old Boat being the exception)? It will be interesting to see if a beginning trend in cars and houses -- downsizing -- will show up in the boating industry as well. Hang on to your C25: in ten years it may be a mid-sized boat!

Brooke

PS: I still don't like the C250 I boarded. But, "your mileage may vary."

Edited by - Brooke Willson on 10/09/2006 22:07:14

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2006 : 07:05:12

Ouch!
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">My hunch is that Catalina decided a 25 foot boat is really just a big daysailer<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Just have to share with you some of the adventures aboard Joint Decision a C250WB(2005).
We live in SOFLA, slips are expensive, rare, and mostly on a canal. So a trailer based boat was our best choice. Because we have to launch and retieve every trip, the WB model was our choice. I'm 6'0" and my wife is 5'6".

Based upon these needs and facts, we take JD out for a minimum of 3 nights each trip, it's way to much work (WB or WK) to prep-launch-recover-deprep to 'Daysail'

JD has built in Air Conditioning (a must here in sofla if you are on the boat in summer.) in the port side of the aft berth (just astern of the head) and it takes up virtualy zero sleeping area. However, we sleep in the v-berth; Not because of the crawl required into the aft berth, but because we like it better.

I typically cook 3 meals a day on board, we have all the amenities of an RV including TV, and DVD. The only issue with the head is the porta potti, it's too small for 3 days or 'normal' use.

We have had 15 'adventures' on JD so far, many weekends just cruising around Biscayne Bay (Sands Key, Elliott Key, Billys Point, Card Sound, BocaChita Key, Pumpkin Key, Black point marina, Matheson state park, Homestead bayfront marina, etc.) We sailed from Miami to John Pennekamp state park. Another trip took us inside on the Intracoastal from Miami to Key Largo on the 'inside', we're planning on a trip to cocoa beach area next month, and possibly to the Bradenton area at the end of the year. Next year we are going to try the Bimini trip again, earlier, and better qualified (we needed the sailing experience we have been gaining each trip.)

Would I like a bigger boat? yes! would I have bought a C25 had I seen one prior to buying JD(new)? very likely (price!) Do I consider our boat a daysailer? absolutely not! The opposite, I see the boat as a pocket cruiser and it's range is only limited by my time off and my wifes acceptance :) (Oh, and the availablility of a pump out!)

Couldn't just allow the posting of Brooks points to go unchallenged. I know, it's not personal, I'm smilling like crazy as I write this

Paul

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2006 : 14:47:04

See, Paul, that explains everything: I'm three inches taller than you. Makes all the difference!

Brooke

Edited by - on

Justin
Admiral

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502 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2006 : 08:56:23

I went to the show on Monday. It was great with beautiful weather and it wasn't too crowded. I didn't see any killer deals. I never found the $90 foul weather gear deal, which sounded very good since most sets started around $160 from what I saw. I ended up not buying anything, but enjoyed talking with many of the vendors, for example I got more information about taking care of my Awlgrip painted hull, upgrading my furler, and talked with one of the Westlawn yacht design instructors (career I dreamed of when I was younger). Then of course, I loved looking at all the amazing sailboats! Wow, there were so many! I think the most impressive was the 80' Oyster Yacht named Sarita from London. Who has $7 million to spare?

I wouldn't mind living on that and traveling the world! My brother and I lucked into being the last two people allowed to tour aboard.

Here is a variety of photos I took.
The 80' Sarita

I love the wood work on these boats, sure must be a lot of work to maintain the beautiful finishes:

Edited by - on

Turk
Admiral

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USA
736 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2006 : 19:30:57

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">[i]
Worst boats (the poor McGregor doesn't count): Hunters. Ugly and poorly built. Finish work below is cheap. Runner up: Catalina 250. Sorry, cousins. I had no idea how much smaller that boat is below than a 25. I actually had to look again topside to make sure I wasn't on a C22.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

OK Brook, I'm gunning for you. As the proud owner of a catalina 250 WK I would have to say I was very shocked at the look and feel of the cat 250 WB at the show. You are a bit right, but having said that, let me explain. It was the first water ballast model I've seen and I will agree that it was tight in the cabin. NOTHING like the expansive feel of the wing keel version that I have! Standing was difficult in the WB. It felt very short AND the head was awkward to say the least (I didn't use the head!)

Ther are some things that you did not mention though like the 9 person cockpit (hmmmm, a bit larger than your cat 25 ehh?) The flat decks that invite you to walk around, and the walk through transome, something you only dream about.

Of course I'm kidding a bit here, but you need to see a WK version before you jump to conclusions. They are a fine and fast boat.

Edited by - on

mhartong
Navigator

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USA
152 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2006 : 19:44:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Brooke Willson
 Dave: it must have been a water ballast. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The 250 at Annapolis this year WAS a water ballast model.

. It does have about 10 inches less headroom than the wing keel.

Consider that one of the reasons for the termination of new 25's was economics- the cost of a new 25 was greater than the market could bear. The 250, on the other hand, was designed to reach a lower price point while providing similar capabilities. The water ballast for those who primarily trailer sail, the wing keel for those who slip their boats.

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2006 : 22:04:57

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">It does have about 10 inches less headroom than the wing keel.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I believe it is 11" less. For some reason, not only is the floor higher (the ballast tank is beneath it) but the cabin top is also lower. At least that is how Catalina explained it to me when I enquired.
Now that I have decent tow vehicle, I would probably go for the WK, but that would mean getting rid of some of the other pros of the WB.

Lower C.0.G on the trailer (safety)
Less Draft (it's about 19" with the keel up)
No ability to 'Blow the Ballast, we're aground!.

Paul.

Edited by - on

Russ.Johnson
Commodore

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USA
855 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2006 : 01:32:45

Brooke,
I know how you feel. I have a 250WB and it's not for everyone.
Every boat is a compromise but I'm (we're) happy with our 250WB.

You raise an interesting point.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Brooke Willson
My hunch is that Catalina decided a 25 foot boat is really just a big daysailer (a not unreasonable conviction), and wanted to encourage people to buy at least a 270 if they're going to spend any appreciable time on board. That would be consistent with the general pattern in the industry pushing bigger boats -- how many times do we see the trade magazines featuring anything smaller than the mid-thirties<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
In Cruising World (Oct 06) "Boat-Show Preview - 61 New Models Reviewed" page 124-133.
On page 124 there is a section on "Day Boats".
Quote: "...Following the sailaway success of the M36, Morris Yachts brings us the M42...
In 42 feet, the 'day' might well become a long weekend..."
By the way, the Morris M42 is $589,000

I'm happy with my C250WB, but I wouldn't be happy with the M42.
The payments would be more than my house.
I think we have more things in common than those Morris guys.

Russ (C250WB #793)

Edited by - Russ.Johnson on 10/12/2006 01:37:03

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2006 : 06:22:46

Get in line, Turk!

Nine person cockpit? Not nine of ME. Flat decks (you mean, the lack of a side deck so I have to scramble over the coach roof to go forward)?

Hey, I concede that I was looking at a WB and generalized. So, to all you 250 WK owners, I WAS WRONG!!. But the WB, to me, is better a daysailer -- you know, just like the Morris 42 (which, by the way, is an exquisitely beautiful boat if you ignore the obscenity of a 42 foot daysailer costing 600 grand).

But I'm still not trading my 25. Yet.

Brooke

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2006 : 07:25:40

Ok, that's it, I'm officially peeved!

What is it that qualifies the C25 as a 'cruiser' and demotes the c250WB to the lowly notion of a daysailer?

If the cabin headroom was the definition, then I would have to agree, but that would mean that a lot of boats that have sailed across the Atlantic et. al. were daysailers, so the empirical evidence would suggest it is not the cabin headroom.

I would rule out 'onboard facilities' as a definintion: There is hardly a single mod to the C25 'facilities' that could not be implemented somehow in the C250WB.

I would rule out 'seaworthyness', I don't think anyone would disagree that all versions of the Catalina 25' have similar seaworthyness and the cruising limits are imposed by skill and lack of folly. (FYI, having been atop many ocean going ships in really really ugly weather, I wouldn't take a huge sailing boat out if those conditions were due, so I'm really conservative about our cruising weather limits too.)

This is fun! Nothing like loyalty to the brand to get folks empassioned about their choices.

Sail on me-hearties.

Paul.

ps. If I win the lottery, I would be seriously looking at the C309, now that is a boat with headroom, plus is has space for stowing half-a-dozen stowaways in that huge dumpster in the cockpit port side. And you never know when you need more crew!

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2006 : 11:44:50

Price-point was definitely an issue--take a look at the ComPac 25, which has many characteristics of the Catalina 25 (different hull form, but...) and runs $60-85K these days. They've tried to dress it up more to justify the price... I don't think they're selling many.

Last I heard, the headroom difference between the WK and WB 250 was 5", which is quite a bit, but still doesn't let a six-footer stand up straight. (Nor does the C-25--admit it.) I recall that most of the difference is the lower floor, and part the higher freeboard.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 10/12/2006 11:54:35

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2006 : 14:38:26

What's with the growing trend of moving the mast forward?

The J dimension of the C25 is 10.5", which is 2' more than the Hunter 25 and about the same as the H33.

If they keep moving the masts forward, they'll eventually be selling only catboats.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2006 : 15:16:33

Blame Hoyt and the fashionable self-tacking jib, you have to have some sail area somewhere!

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2006 : 18:47:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 What's with the growing trend of moving the mast forward?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The stated reason from various builders is easier sail-handling. The main is of course self-tacking--an overlapping jib can't be, but a smaller foretriangle and a fractional rig allow tacking a 30+ footer without gorilla-grinders on board. So the trend is toward larger, full-battened mains with larger roaches. Catalina is a holdout for masthead rigs--many competitors have gone fractional.

Edited by - on

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