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rudder help

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chris
1st Mate

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USA
26 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/18/2002 : 18:47:40

My rudder is spliting at bottom and around top. seems stable but allows water inside to core. any advise? Chris on Lhung Ta

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Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2002 : 21:50:39

Pull the rudder dry it out. Gring out bad area, fill with epoxy, fair and sand then paint. Bingo your done . Should be a weekend project one its dry.

Doug&Ruth
Wind Lass
Tacoma Wa.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2002 : 22:00:18

Another variation: Dry it out for a week or two (heat helps) and then fill with penetrating epoxy, which will combine with any rotten wood to create a stong core. I don't like that yours split below the waterline--if you repair it, I'd use fiberglass around the entire seam in addition to epoxy inside.

A more expensive but very nice alternative is to get the new balanced rudder from Catalina or Catalina Direct. They were over 6 boat units when I got ours over a year ago...

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette "Passage" in SW CT

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POP
Deckhand

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USA
6 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2002 : 22:06:43

Chris, mine was doing the same thing, so I tried sanding out the cracks so I could fill in with filler, fibre glass etc. The further I went the worse it got, large areas were delaminated and the core was rotted, in places the entire thickness of the rudder. I could have fixed it but I would have had more filler than core left in large areas.
With a long sad face I showed it to my wife and she said, completely on her own "we need a new rudder". Of course I hesitantly said I'm afraid so and ran to the phone to order a new balanced rudder. Wow, what a difference. While I was at it I went ahead and ordered the heavy duty geudgons and pintles. I didn't realize I had been working so hard to steer the boat with the old rudder.

You might be able to leave your rudder out of the water in the heat for a while and let it dry out and then seal the cracks, giving you a few more seasons. But if it's been that way for a long time like mine was when I got it, you may not be able to save it.

Good Luck,

Mike-1985 C25 #4932 TR/FK SecondWind

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OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2002 : 23:44:57

Chris,
I think I took the most radical approach. I set my table saw blade at 1" and made a cut lengthwise - cleaning out all of the affected areas (there was nothing left to dry out.) Filled the cuts with epoxy and filler. Re gelcoated, 5 coats of System 2000E, then VC17m.
That was four years ago.

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andy p
1st Mate

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55 Posts

Response Posted - 06/19/2002 : 10:42:26

If it's not in too bad a shape you could try a salvage - it's one of easier fiberglass repairs since you work with the material on a table. The fix is a straight forward repair - grind it out and build it back up. Don't mess around with tubes of any other goop. If you go for a new rudder, keep in mind there was some confusion about the exact measurments so double check that with Catalina. My replacement rudder didn't clear the transom (by about an inch) and Catalina had to send another.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/19/2002 : 19:13:36

Chris: Another thought on the new vs. restore debate... What are your sailing waters and conditions? If it's inland lake sailing on relatively flat water, you can probably get by with a restored, rotten rudder. If you sail in conditions that cause pitching and some pounding, the lateral forces on the rudder blade can be substantial, and a rotten core could cause a break right at the lower pintle--leaving you suddenly with no steerage.

My choice, in Long Island Sound, was to retire the split rudder and go balanced--as others have said, it's a great improvement, but at a cost. I also take my rudder home and keep it in the basement in the winter, avoiding freezing any moisture that may have somehow entered the foam core. I suspect freezing is the cause of much of the splitting many of us have seen.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette "Passage" in SW CT

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eric.werkowitz
Captain

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USA
283 Posts

Response Posted - 06/19/2002 : 19:41:54

Chris,

One other option is to build a balanced rudder. I built one several years ago from exterior plywood with a fiberglass sheath. If you are fairly handy, it's not too bad a job. Took me a couple weeks of part-time work. It has held up well so far, but I'm thinking about building another because I know it will be even better based on what I learned on the first one. I estimated the materials cost at about $100. If you're interested, I think I can find some descriptions of the process.

Eric Werkowitz
C25 #4969

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Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 06/19/2002 : 22:36:49

Eric,<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I know it will be even better based on what I learned on the first one ... I think I can find some descriptions of the process.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> So, what did you learn on the first one?<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle> I'm planning to build one too some day. What thickness plywood core? What type & thickness skin (lay-up schedule)? Any additional reinforcement? What foil cross section, and technique used to produce it? Any and all hints would be greatly appreciated!

-- Leon Sisson

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eric.werkowitz
Captain

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USA
283 Posts

Response Posted - 06/20/2002 : 01:14:59

Leon,

I used two layers of 5/8" exterior A/C plywood glued with water-proof carpenter's glue as the core. The rudder is thinner than the factory item by about 3/16". I expected the fiberglass to lay-up thicker than it did. Next time I'll use 3/4" (maybe marine grade, but not too sure it's that important) and surface plane it to ~11/16".

I screwed the two layers of ply together while the glue dried. This helped me locate at least some of the voids in the ply (marine ply will have few, if any). When I removed the screws I filled the voids with epoxy.

I used two layers of 7oz unidirectional glass with most the fibers running lengthwise down the rudder. Then topped with two layers of bidirectional 6oz glass with the fibers up-down and left-right. Next time I'll top with four layers bidirectional with the fibers running oblique to the leading edge. This will resist twisting better. I assumed the major bending moment would be from "lift" normal to the rudder. I now think the main force is the twisting applied by the rudder as the helmsman tries to increase angle of attack. I also should have applied a generous radius to all the square corners. If the corner is too sharp, the fiberglass tends to spring away before the epoxy sets as it tries to straighten out.

I used a NACA 0009 foil (or something close to it.) I produced it using a router and a jig to run "stairsteps" longitudinally on the lower section of the rudder. The inside edge of the steps were cut to the proper depth for the foil at that location. Then I used a marker to highlight this edge and sanded the ridges off with a belt sander until the lines disappeared. That produced the foil profile. My leading edge was a bit too sharp as it turned out. Next time I'll use a round-over bit and the router to do the leading edge.

I didn't like the way the tiller sits on that little ledge at the top forward corner of the rudder. The factory rudders seem to crack in this area. I installed a stainless bolt and nut through the rudder to take the load of the tiller when someone leans on it. I also used large stainless fender washers to distribute the load on the bolt that holds the tiller to the rudder. These are epoxied in place and held with counter sunk stainless screws.

That is the basic procedure. It's an interesting project.

Eric Werkowitz
C25 #4969

Edited by - eric.werkowitz on 06/20/2002 01:19:08

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 06/20/2002 : 09:06:08

I did this project two years ago over the winter. The rudder was pretty wet. After sanding of the VC-17 and getting down to the gel coat I ground out all the blisters and cracks. I also drilled some good sized holes (1/4 inch if I recall) in areas around the cracks that seemed to be pretty wet. The Rudder then sat in a dry heated room with a dehumidifier for about 2 months (one luxury that we have up here in Cleveland when there is two feet of snow, you don't miss any sailing time working on a project like this)

After the rudder was dry I used West system epoxy with a colloidal silica additive to fill the holes and cracks that I created. Colloidal silica doesn't sand too easily, but it is pretty darn strong. Take a look at the label if you don't want to spend your hours fairing the rudder. After everything was sanded smooth I prepped for the barrier coat. For this I used Interlux 202, and IMHO there is nothing better. Tack cloth first, then a good bath of 202. anyone using this stuff, wear goggles, gloves and a respirator (not just a paper mask) make sure the room is ventilated and don't smoke. Next I applied interlux's two part epoxy paint barrier coat. If I recall it took 3 coats to get to the specific thickness recommended. (about 6 to 10 mil but I can't remember, it may have been more, it may have been less but I followed the recommended thickness on the back of the can). Next was two coats of VC and It was ready to go.

A few notes: 1. I only had to work below the water line so there wasn't any dealing with white gel coat paint. 2. There are specific timeframes so that you don't need to sand between coats, I recommend reading them first so you don't have to get up at 3 in the morning for a coat of paint. 3. Make sure your rudder is thoroughly dry or you will be doing this again in a few years.

dw

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Loren H.
1st Mate

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USA
45 Posts

Response Posted - 06/20/2002 : 12:06:12

Chris,

I had the same situation last season. Rudder was cracked in many places and I was comtemplating repair or replacement. On July 4 however, in a good strong wind, my decision was made for me. With a steep heel, with a lot of pressure on the tiller, my rudder did exactly what Dave describes, it snapped between the pintles. Oh boy, what a ride that was. Luckily, after rounding up and flailing about, we were able to pull the sails down and go in by using the outboard for steering.

I was able to repair the rudder temporarily by straping two pieces of red oak (the hardest wood Home Depot had) on each side of the rudder and drilling lag bolts thru the rudder. This held for five weeks while I waited for my new balanced rudder from Catalina Direct.

The new rudder was expensive but performs much better than the original, less rounding up and a lighter tiller (and much purtier).

I guess as long as your rudder still has enough strength to hold up against high winds or rough water like Dave mentioned you'll be OK. Otherwise, get the new balanced rudder.

Loren

"Epiphany" '78 SK SR #352

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 06/20/2002 : 13:16:13

Chris,

My rudder split along the leading edge, above the waterline. The rudder has a plywood core. When moisture gets to it, the plywood delaminates. I dried the rudder out thoroughly by putting it in my basement next to my furnace over the winter. Then I set it on edge, so that the split side was facing upwards. I poured epoxy resin into it, repeatedly, until it wouldn't take any more. I had to reapply it five or six times, because it ran down inside the rudder and filled the open spaces between the delaminated layers of plywood. When it wouldn't take any more epoxy resin, I covered and smoothed the crack with white "Marine Tex." Next, I got two strips of aluminum, about 24" long, 2 ½" wide and ¼" thick, mounted the strips on either side of the rudder, parallel to the split, drilled holes through the aluminum strips and rudder, and through-bolted them all with stainless steel bolts. Finally, I used a small phenolic core roller to cover the underwater surfaces of the rudder with two or three coats of V-C Tar, to prevent any further intrusion of moisture, and then finished it off with a couple coats of regular bottom paint. (Most plastic core rollers will work as well as a phenolic core roller. Marine paints and other repair substances usually cause a cardboard core roller to fall apart.) After two years, this seems to have stopped any further deterioration of my rudder.

If I had to do it again, I would probably slightly change the above procedures. I would drill along the crack about every inch-and-a-half with a ¼" drill, as deeply as my drill bit would reach, or, until I reached undamaged wood, and I would use "Git Rot" to fill the crack, instead of epoxy resin. "Git Rot" is specifically designed to use for this purpose, and it is drawn into the wood fibers by osmosis. Don't be turned off by the uncouth name of the stuff. Professional boat repairers swear by "Git Rot."

Unlike some of the others, I did not grind out the bad area before filling the crack. Even rotten wood contains fibers. When you pour the filler into the crack, it surrounds those fibers, and the fibers make the filler stronger when it hardens. As Dave Bristle says, the epoxy will "…combine with any rotten wood to create a stong core." If the plywood is deteriorated as severely as Mike's ("Second Wind" C-25 #4932), I would mix some sawdust into the "Git Rot" before pouring it into the rudder.

As far as I can tell, my rudder is as strong as ever.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

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OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 06/20/2002 : 13:39:28

The name Git Rot reminds of a story.
A man had to take his son to a hospital for tests. They came from a very impoverished area and niether of them have ever been to a modern city before. As they waited in the hospital lobby, the father watched a decrepit women walked into (what he thought was) a small room with automatic sliding doors. A couple minutes later a bell rings, the doors reopen and out walks this beautiful, stunning young women. The man sat there in total amazement for a minute then leaned over and said to his son "boy, go git your mama."
Thanks for reminding me of that story Steve <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> !

Edited by - OJ on 06/20/2002 13:42:02

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jellyfish
Navigator

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USA
171 Posts

Response Posted - 06/20/2002 : 14:20:36

after trying to "doctor" mine for a couple of seasons, I broke down and bought the balanced rudder from Catalina Direct. best money I ever spent on the Jellyfish.

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