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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Trailer brakes for the second axle

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sweetcraft
Admiral

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USA
816 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/20/2006 : 00:14:02

Looking at off season project of adding brakes to the 2nd axle. Has anyone installed disk brakes on one axle with drum brakes on the other? Easyloader trailer came with drum brakes on lst axle.

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2006 : 05:46:18

I'm not sure if discs and drums require different pressures (I think they do)but they do require different orifice sizes coming from your main cylinder.
With discs you need to add either a blocking, or bleed solenoid to your hydraulic lines if you want to back up your trailer.

I recommend you call the good folks at Champion trailers in slidell louisiana and ask their tech folks, they have always been a good help to me, and I have bought lots of stuff from them.

They sell dico/titan actuators. Some are set up for discs, some for drums, so that should be a clue.

Google them and check out their website, lots of good tech stuff there on trailers and brakes.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2006 : 09:11:54

You'll get uneven braking performance unless you install a pressure reduction valve for the drum brakes. Drums respond with lower hydraulic pressure and they will be doing most of the work.

The other difference in disk/drum systems is that a master cylinder used for disk brakes requires a 'bleed back' port to relieve pressure that builds up in the disk brake wheel cylinders. Without pressure relief they will drag and eventually heat up/lock up. Champion details a procedure for poking a small hole in the master cylinder membrane to accomplish this.

I was faced with the same dilemma you are. I had drums already on the front and wanted to add a set of brakes to the second axle. I got the corrosion resistant second axle drum brake kit from championtrailers.com. It works just fine but in hindsight I wish I'd bitten the bullet ($) and gone 100 percent disks. No adjustments to balance, no rusty drums... just hose 'em off.

Actually I think I'd first put stainless disks on one axle... and see how they work out. They are such superior brakes in terms of heat disappation that you may not even need the second axle set. You (Jim) have been towing a long time with one set of drums... and a set of disks will be lots better than that.

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2006 : 10:39:29

I changed over to electrics and am very glad, if you have any experience with electrics on RVs then you know the surge is a crippled system with virtually no control given to the driver. With electrics you can actually engage the brakes manually to straighten out a fishtailing rig. With electrics you can add a second axle of braking in an hour, which I will do this winter. Every few months this comes up and everything I have found says that electrics are just as submersible as surges, (unplug them). Also, surges corrode from the inside, what do 20 year old master cylinders look like? Exactly! The lines look the same. It would be irresponsible to replace a master cylinder for corrosion without replacing the lines as well, and the slaves, and ... change to electrics and it is the VC-17 of brakes, better and easier too.

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Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2006 : 11:08:02

Another thought on why not to combine disks and drums.

Drum brakes, particularly on trailers (and front axles of all-drum cars and motorcycles) are almost always double leading shoe, or self energizing. As a leading shoe is forced against the drum, it forces itself harder against the drum. Sort of a crude mechanical version of power brakes. This gives front drum brakes a very 'grabby' feel. A little more pressure from you results in a lot more pressure between the shoes and drum, which brings the tire much closer to its limit of traction, and thus the wheel much closer to lockup.

On boat trailers we think of drums vs. disks in terms of maintanence issues. I'm pretty sure the motor vehicle industry switched from front drums to front disks primarily to improve braking 'feel' by making the relationship between control input and braking force more linear, and thus more predictable.

On the other hand (axle?), disk brake response is linear -- twice as much hydraulic pressure results in the pads squeezing the disk twice as hard.

So with drums and disks combined on the same hydraulic circuit (and on a very short wheelbase), the disks will apply more braking at low pressures. As pressure increases, the braking force from the drums will increase much more rapidly than the disks. This could lead to drum brake lockup (at which point their braking force can no longer increase, and in fact decreases somewhat) before the disks are producing all the deceleration they're capable of.

-- Leon Sisson {Another rediculously complicated answer to a perfectly simple question!

}

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stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2006 : 13:00:58

Like with like. If you've got drums you either need to match the second axle with drums or get two sets of discs.

I'm in a similar situation. I want to add brakes on my second axle.
I put complete new drum brakes on my trailer about a year ago but am seriously considering all discs.

That said, I've been happy with the performace of my single axled surge braking trailer. However, I have not been in an emergency braking situation with.

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Jefffriday
Navigator

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USA
198 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2006 : 14:42:40

Frank, where did you find the electric conversion? and how much did you end up spending? I need all new brakes, everything. Sounds like the electric option might be the best way to go.

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2006 : 16:58:37

Championtrailers.com has everything no matter what type of brakes you want. I bought locally from a trailer supply, Redneck Trailers.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2006 : 17:01:44

oops, you asked about money, If your vehicle has a brake controller in it already it is pretty cheap, controllers come in all different prices. Basically about the same as surge replacement.

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Jefffriday
Navigator

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USA
198 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2006 : 17:25:07

Thanks, I'll check into it. The list of projects to get ready for spring is getting long. I am thinking of waiting on any (more) trailer stuff till the boat is in her slip... seems like an eternity from now. I'll be asking many questions as I peel the oinion. Picked up the boat last week south of Houston... Trailer was not in good shape, boat need lots of TLC and a few upgrades. needs standing and running rigging. Batteries, Sails reconditioned, cleaning, more cleaning.... But, she will be great (89 sr/wk hull# 5860)

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2006 : 12:39:06

I have always heard that if you put your trailer into salt water you shouldn't use electric brakes. Is there any merit to this? Or is this just an urban legend?

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2006 : 12:46:38

I just read a technical article on the Championtrailers website and they said that electric brakes aren't recommended for salt water, and that they will last only two years.

The folks at Champion haven't steered me wrong yet.

Edited by - on

sweetcraft
Admiral

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USA
816 Posts

Response Posted - 10/23/2006 : 10:40:22

Well your sure making it hard to decide. I'm going to pull the hubs off and see the condition of the brakes. The disk brakes sure seem the way to go but I have only launched in salt water once so have to consider where I might cruise next. The boat is lifted off for the San Juans and fresh water lakes for ramp launching. When I replaced the shoes because of grease contamination, the brakes are for a Ford Falcon which confirmed to me that the EZ Loader is for storage not long hauls. I have added plates and bolt sizes in all the places possible to prevent a breakdown. The highways are as rough as I have ever seen and I can see daylight under the tires from freeway bumps and holes through the mirrors. I will have brakes on both axles before the next cruise. Thanks for all the input. I'll let you know what I end up deciding.

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kenobie51
1st Mate

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USA
35 Posts

Response Posted - 10/24/2006 : 12:56:16

I have also considered changing to electric brakes. The electrics give you much added control and safety in a sway situation. Someone above said they had done the switch over. How do they stand up to being submerged? Are you doing an in and out twice a year or more frequently? I currently have a surge drum system on all 4 wheels. Even though I have hydralic surge drum brakes, the drums have the flat surface inside that electrics use. This would make for a relatively inexspensive swap. I need only get 2 pairs of backing plate assemblies at about $120 per pair.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/24/2006 : 15:50:16

Mine never get any wetter than the rain on the highway but that is pretty wet. I use a crane to launch and haul. My information on submersion came from a manufacturer who said they are fine for submersion.

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 10/25/2006 : 10:20:42

submersion in fresh or salt water?

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bear_tm4
Navigator

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USA
143 Posts

Response Posted - 11/05/2006 : 23:47:03

Ok, I just bought my boat last summer, then got word from the army that I had to move 750 miles away. Well panic set in because I now owned a very big boat with a fin keel, and a trailer that looked like it had just been recovered from scrap yard. Well long story short. It had surge brakes, but they where shot. So I took off the head on the touge of the trial rplaced it with heavy duty hitch head and then replace the rear axle with one with electric brakes. This was easier said than done because the trailer was a homemade affair. Any way, it worked like a charm. once I got the right sized axle. I pulle it the 750 miles, and never had a bit a trouble stopping. OH, I can post pictures if some one will tell me how. I just can seem to figure that out. Thanks.

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Jefffriday
Navigator

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USA
198 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2006 : 09:24:12

As another source, Northern tool has a complete disk brake kit for 450.00 for 6600 lb rig. Master cylnder disks lines, everything for one axel, the sell the individual wheel setups for 130.0o ea.

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bear_tm4
Navigator

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USA
143 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2006 : 09:53:56

OK I hope I got this pic thing down, this is a pic of my boat just after I got her, and with the new axel on the trailer, and what a trailer it is, lol...but it works and got me from Kansas to Kentucky.

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2006 : 11:59:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by bear_tm4
 OK I hope I got this pic thing down, this is a pic of my boat just after I got her, and with the new axel on the trailer, and what a trailer it is, lol...but it works and got me from Kansas to Kentucky.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
that should have worked, your syntax was fine, your host must not allow links.

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 11/06/2006 12:02:35

wmeinert@kconline.com
Past Commodore

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USA
353 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2006 : 15:24:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 I changed over to electrics and am very glad, <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Hey now that you have these fancy breaks are we going to see you this year in Cleveland? If so be sure to let them off load your boat with a hoist, because wet electgric brakes don't work to well on "Dead Mans Curve".

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bear_tm4
Navigator

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USA
143 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2006 : 22:53:01

this is my extension for putting in the water, it works quite well, little funny backing sometimes but its good....let me know if you can see the pic this time...

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Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1768 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2006 : 06:20:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by bear_tm4
 this is my extension for putting in the water, it works quite well, little funny backing sometimes but its good....let me know if you can see the pic this time<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Yep ... Shutterfly seems to always work.

BTW ... 'nice looking trailer setup.

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