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cat1951
Admiral

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USA
636 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/30/2006 : 14:09:50

First let me apologize for our friends up north. Yesterday we got out for the first time in quite a few weeks. Here are some of the stats that I have from memory:

Temp: 81 Sunny and windy
Winds: 10-18 to 20mph (I am estimating from the forecast since I don't have a wind meter yet.)
Sails: Main and a new, for us, 150 on a furler
Nautical Miles Sailed: 7
Average Speed: 3.3 kts
Top Speed: 5.7 kts

Now to put this in perspective. We just bought the boat in March of this year (1985 C25 Standard Rig) and haven't been out all that much. In fact I think this was our 7th sail and 5th on our own. Here is the result:

That is the smile I just can't wipe off of my face. The Admiral isn't smiling as wide, but she is getting used to it little by little

Mike
Grand Lake, OK
N.O. Catalina 25 #4849
In my opinion 75% of the earth is water for a reason. That's why I sail.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 10/30/2006 : 17:12:05

I suppose your average speed was speed through the water and measured using Velocity Made Good towards a windward mark? perhaps against an adverse current? Otherwise, those are terribly slow numbers. In 15 to 20 knots of wind I would have been flying either my 110 jib or my 135, possibly with even a reefed main (at least flattened). I would never had my speed drop below 6. We would have been ducking spray and heeling 35 degrees or more.

Perhaps you are seriously overestimating the wind. I find, when you first start to think its really windy, that is 10. When there are sometimes white caps, 12. When the sea has frequent white caps, 15. When it is all white caps, 20.

Your boat will perform at its MAX at windspeed around 12 knots. You should see a long term average of 5.5 knots to 6.3 knots or better.

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 10/30/2006 : 17:46:57

Mike,

Thanks for the post and keep them coming. The winter is very long up here in northern Michigan. Don't pay too much attention to Jim though. He's not only CG a licensed captain he also gets very ornery around this time of year when he realizes he lives in San Diego and can't experience a Northern UP winter

.

He does have a point though. I pretty much drove my wife away from sailing by carrying too much sail on windy days and scaring the heck out of her with excessive uncontrolled healing. I was ignorant at the time. She now only motors on windless days. Generally your boat will sail as fast in winds over 12mph with a reefed main as it will under 12mph under full sail. There's a lot of physics mumbo jumbo involved which you will catch onto with time and experience. In the mean time, if the wind gets to be over 12, reef the main. Your wife will be glad you did.

Edited by - aeckhart on 10/30/2006 17:50:03

DanM
Captain

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USA
256 Posts

Response Posted - 10/30/2006 : 17:51:56

Aww, Jim. Give the guy a break!
Maybe the log was initialized at the dock. Maybe it's a long way to and from the harbor gap. Maybe the Admiral likes a gentle heel; say, 10 vs.30 degrees!
I agree with your "whitecaps" assessment. Now that I have a handheld windgauge (a gift from my marvelous mother-in-law), it's easier to decide at the dock whether or not to reef the main.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/30/2006 : 20:43:32

Jim, he bought JB's boat, shh.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3483 Posts

Response Posted - 10/30/2006 : 21:47:56

Well...it's getting a bit chilly here in the Wash, DC/Northern VA area. I went out today between 300pm - 700pm. It started off with temps in the 50s, sunny and then went down from there...into the 40s. Started with a long sleeve shirt, then kept adding layers. Came back with lights on. Winds were about 8 knts to start with and then dropped to zippo around 640pm. I motored back for about 15 minutes. A few sailboats were out at first and a few crew boats from one of the local universities. Then....it was just me.

Edited by - on

cat1951
Admiral

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USA
636 Posts

Response Posted - 10/31/2006 : 07:54:55

Well from the responses, I'll bet I was over estimating the wind. And probably by as much as 10mph. There weren't any whitecaps, so maybe I was just wishing. And yes, I probably could have coaxed a little more speed out of her, but the Admiral has been the Admiral for over 29 years. I know when to listen and when I can ignore..which is NEVER

Since it was only our 5th solo sail, we are still getting used to everything that it takes to get that little more out of the boat. As far as the knotmeter, yes we did initialize at the dock and didn't take our average till we were almost back, so maybe we need to adjust our process.

I, however, will never apologize for getting excited at even small stats to others. When I have a few years under my belt, then I will let the smile go a little.

I am sure Jim was a beginner at some point or another......well maybe

"I suppose your average speed was speed through the water and measured using Velocity Made Good towards a windward mark? perhaps against an adverse current?" NOPE...just what the knotmeter told me

Forgot to mention that I did try to go back on the weather reports to check the actual wind speed, but was unable to find any info.

Edited by - cat1951 on 10/31/2006 08:39:00

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 10/31/2006 : 09:39:54

Nice job, Mike. Apparently, Jim has forgotten the exhiliration that comes from those early successes in one's sailing career.

BTW, historical weather data is available from www.weatherunderground.com, as well as a good star charting tool. When the wind is from the south or east or I head for the dam, I use Jay, Oklahoma data. When the wind is from the west or north or I head up the lake, I use Grove, Oklahoma data.

Here are the stats from Jay for last Sunday, but the website also includes time series graphics:

Temperature
Mean Temperature 60 °F / 15 °C -
Max Temperature 80 °F / 26 °C - - ()
Min Temperature 39 °F / 3 °C - - ()

Wind
Wind Speed 1 mph / 2 km/h (South)
Max Wind Speed 18 mph / 29 km/h
Max Gust Speed 24 mph / 39 km/h

Edited by - on

cat1951
Admiral

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USA
636 Posts

Response Posted - 10/31/2006 : 10:10:56

Thanks JB, maybe my estimate wasn't that far off after all. We really had a great time and are looking forward to the next time. It also confirmed to me that sailing is a great way to have fun. Maybe we will try to get those extra kts. on future sails

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 10/31/2006 : 14:54:16

My guess is your knot meter is not calibrated. In that much wind, with a 150 up, the boat should have been flying. You are ducking spray. The rail is under. You are holding onto the tiller feeling the power. You are thinking seriously about reducing sail, flattening the main, traveller down. The boat is leaving a substantial wake, both bow and stern. You are not sitting down (standing on the leeward cockpit seats). Everything in the cabin is on the floor. By the way, this is exactly what I am looking for these days, anything else is just a drift.

FYI - I was a novice sailor when I came here (but a very experienced waterman).

Edited by - on

cat1951
Admiral

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USA
636 Posts

Response Posted - 11/01/2006 : 08:33:19

Well Jim, I am still smiling about my drift.

This was the first time that the Admiral and I sailed solo. So it is quite possible that the avg speed was more than indicated. I say that because we turn on our meter at the dock and begin tracking from there. Had we turned it on when raising the sails, the number of nautical miles would have been reduced thus raising the average. And for one who never sailed solo at 5.7kts it was a blast even if it lasted for only 4-5 minutes. BTW: I am still smiling...

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/01/2006 : 09:00:50

Just to check to see if me knotmeter is in the ballpark, every now and then, I'll motor a straight line course around 5.5kts while comparing the knotmeter to the GPS. I usually do this in the protected channel leading out of the marina (no current, water like glass,...etc).

Edited by - on

cat1951
Admiral

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USA
636 Posts

Response Posted - 11/01/2006 : 10:30:30

Thanks Don, but for now we do not have a GPS. Since we sail on a large lake, landmarks are easily available. The shores are lined with homes and we carry a chart with depths and other info. If we continue to do most of our sailing on this lake, I just can't justify the expense for a GPS. I am actively considering a compass though. I used to do quite a bit of orienteering when I was growing up in Colorado. A map and compass is just about all I need to get my bearings.

Edited by - on

reuben
Navigator

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USA
202 Posts

Response Posted - 11/01/2006 : 10:59:28

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">anything else is just a drift.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Excitement is good, adrenaline's good. We all love it. But don't knock the drift, amigo.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/01/2006 : 11:33:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by cat1951
 ...for now we do not have a GPS. Since we sail on a large lake, landmarks are easily available. The shores are lined with homes and we carry a chart with depths and other info...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Mike,

I also sail mainly by line of sight. I can be 10-15 miles off shore and still be able to see something like a nuke tower, a smokestack, an island, Perry's Monument,...etc, and even though I have a handheld GPS, I very rarely use it. Most times I fire it up is to find my ETA back to the marina, but for the most part, it just sits on a shelf in the cabin. I sailed for years without one, but I bought one soon after I got caught in a fog that was so thick, I could barely see the bow from the cockpit. The fog came upon me so quick, I didn't even have time to note a bearing. I guestimated a compass course to take me back to the marina, but I ended up about a mile off course and in shallow water. Soon thereafter, I purchased my handheld GPS.

Edited by - on

Ericson33
Admiral

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USA
892 Posts

Response Posted - 11/01/2006 : 11:50:45

Mike,
Grand Lake is one of the worlds best places to learn how to sail, don't ever let anyone tell you any different. My father learned on Grand Lake down in Duck Creek, He holds 3 North Americans and a Worlds Title. The winds on Grand are always strong, and I think that you will hardly never see a time when its dead still. We get shifty winds, and it can be blowing 8 and go to 20 in a heart beat here in Oklahoma.

I am glad to hear that the furler install was a good one, How did you like putting the genoa up, pretty sweet huh. Sunday on Keystone the winds were in the 12 to 13 knot range, there were little white caps but nothing major. Don't let the old salts get you down because you didn't go 6 knots. The main thing to remember is that you and your wife have a good time and enjoy the boat.

Kim and I have started out on a San Jaun 24, and I can remember the first time we took the boat out by ourselves. I went forward to set the Genoa up, and she gibed the boat, and hit me square in the head. Needless to say it wasn't my first time sailing, or getting hit by a boom. We had a relaxing time, and yes it puts a big smile on your face.

Forget the stats, forget the knot meter, forget the heal guide, forget the windspeed. You need to feel the wind on your face, How the hairs on your cheeks will tell you your wind speed at the dock, the water rushing by the hull will tell you your speed, and how you have to sit in the cockpit will tell you your heal. The insterments are going to be your worse enemy right now, Your wife will look at the heal meter all of the time and not enjoy the ride, you will be looking at the wind guage and telling yourself if you should have done this or that. Just my 2 Cents.

Edited by - Ericson33 on 11/01/2006 11:51:15

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/01/2006 : 12:06:54

I have no (in)clinometer, don't want one. My feet are either in the cockpit or on the edge of the leeward seat or on the back of the leeward seat; that's none, some and some more heeling.

Edited by - on

cat1951
Admiral

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USA
636 Posts

Response Posted - 11/01/2006 : 12:22:32

Funny you mention the inclinometer. I seen them, but haven't seriously thought about getting one. The compass, for me, would be the best buy as Grand Lake is shaped like a dragon, long and curving back and forth throughout the length. The compass would help me orient the chart to the boat direction especially on cloudy days.

On wind meters, I started another thread on here about whether or not to buy one. For now, the only use I would have would be to accurately measure the wind for the notes in our log. The rest is learing by feel whether or not to reef. The Admiral is still not comfortable in winds where reefing is required. She will adjust, but it will take time.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/01/2006 : 13:12:05

My interest in windmeters is purely informational. I don't how many times when coming in off the water I get asked by a sailor going out, "What's the wind like?" to which I might respond, "There's a good breeze out there". The only problem is my "good breeze" might be another's "hurricane gale"!

Edited by - on

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