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What are the sailing and performance differences .

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aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 11/10/2006 : 12:50:24

Aside from the fact that this years Nationals top finishers were all swingers, it should also be noted that they also had either a myler or kevlar headsail, main, or in the case of the national champion, both. Not to disuade anyone from attending due to the quality or age of their sails. I suspect that I had as much fun in sixth place with baggy old cruising sails as Bill Meinert had in second(?). There was more than the keel cable involved however. A thoroughly enjoyable experience I hope to repeat next year, hopefully with my wk/tr with dacron sails.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/11/2006 : 11:42:44

The top three boats over all in 05 were all fins. Top two std rigs and the fourth place std rig were fins, Longwind the top finishing swinger was third. Top two tall rigs were fins. Bill, I don't remember you making up anything to weather against the fins at Cheney. Fins win in Kansas.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 11/11/2006 : 12:40:49

At the Catalina Nationals, in any given year, dacron sails might beat laminated sails, and non-spinnaker boats might beat spinnaker boats, and old sails might beat new sails, etc. The one thing that is consistent is that the boat that is prepared and sailed the best is almost always the winner, regardless of how it's equipped. Last year, the top finishers had everything going for them. They were well prepared, well equipped and extremely well sailed. A well prepared and sailed, stock boat can win a trophy, and perhaps the national championship.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 11/11/2006 : 13:34:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by aeckhart
 Aside from the fact that this years Nationals top finishers were all swingers, it should also be noted that they also had either a myler or kevlar headsail, main, or in the case of the national champion, both. Not to disuade anyone from attending due to the quality or age of their sails. I suspect that I had as much fun in sixth place with baggy old cruising sails as Bill Meinert had in second(?). There was more than the keel cable involved however. A thoroughly enjoyable experience I hope to repeat next year, hopefully with my wk/tr with dacron sails.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Meinert was Third overall, but First in the std Rig Fleet. I was second overall and second in the standard rig fleet. While the "any given Sunday" speech Steve Milby makes is valid, After a clean bottom, newer sails are going to create a huge performance difference and are the second most important ingredient. Skill and weight are going to be third and fourth.

This years winners Overall were as follows

Overall/class -
First/First - Fin Keel, tall rig, (inboard tracks) Sobstad Sails - New
Second/Second - Swing, Std, Sobstad Sails -
Third/First - Swing,Std, Doyle Sails -
Fourth/Third - Swing,Std loft unknown (it was metzel so you could ask him)

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 11/11/2006 : 14:35:49

Duane, what are the years on the top placing boats? I've heard that early C25 production boats were slightly faster than later models. [As is the case in the C22 fleets where early production boats are the ones to beat].

Still wondering if there was a slight hull form change between the 'Mk 1' and 'Mk II' C25 variants.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 11/11/2006 : 15:43:14

Good laminated sails and good dacron sails are the same shape, and they create the same exact amount of drive. There are two principal differences in them. (1) Laminated sails don't stretch as much as dacron sails. In light winds and winds of normal strength, dacron sails don't stretch enough to matter at all. In strong winds, they do stretch, but if you re-trim them every time the wind puffs, you can maintain almost the same shape as laminated sails, especially on a boat the size of a C25. (2) The fabric that laminated sails are made of is lighter in weight than dacron sails. That means that laminated sails will fill and take a nice shape in lighter air than dacron sails, with their heavier sailcloth. Also, in very strong winds, the extra weight of dacron sailcloth gives the boat a higher center of gravity, which causes it to heel more. But, most racing is done in winds of approximately average strength, so, the extra weight of dacron is only a significant factor if the wind is unusually strong or unusually light.

Except for the lighter weight and less stretchiness of laminated sails, they have very little other significant advantage over dacron sails, and dacron sails will drive the boat just as fast as laminated sails.

I won the 2003 Nationals (tall rig) using all dacron sails in very light air. My genoa was a 22 year old North dacron sail. Other competitors were flying laminated sails, but we were consistently first to finish, and, in all but one or possibly two races, by such a considerable time and distance that we would have beaten standard and tall rigs alike, if they had been handicapped against each other.

Depending on the conditions, if you prep your boat well and sail good races, you can win the national regatta with dacron sails.

With regard to the design differences between older and newer C25s, the only difference I'm aware of that matters is when Catalina stopped using cast iron fin keels, and started using lead. The main difference is that the cast iron keels were cast fairly crudely, and it was difficult to make them fair. The fiberglass encased lead keels were much smoother.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 11/11/2006 16:28:25

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 11/11/2006 : 16:08:12

OK, what this all really means is that I should bring my tall rig wing with two year old dacron sails to Cleveland next year and whip the pants off everyone........with a clean bottom of course..sic

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/12/2006 : 10:55:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 Good laminated sails and good dacron sails are the same shape, and they create the same exact amount of drive...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I dunno... Having handled both as crew, I really wonder about laminated sails being lighter--they certainly are harder to handle and feel heavy compared to same-sized dacrons--maybe that's just because they're unwieldy. And above 12 knots or so, it appears to me that laminates have a substantial shape advantage--certainly the people I know who've spent a bunch of boat-units on them think so. In very light air, Dacron seems to have an advantage because it easily achieves a full shape.

Regarding C-25 vintages, the myth (if it is one) might be based on the later-discontinued swingers being faster than the wings that replaced them (except on a run).

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 11/12/2006 : 21:04:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ClamBeach
 Duane, what are the years on the top placing boats? I've heard that early C25 production boats were slightly faster than later models. [As is the case in the C22 fleets where early production boats are the ones to beat].

Still wondering if there was a slight hull form change between the 'Mk 1' and 'Mk II' C25 variants.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

To my knowledge there was no hull variation, however as you know there was a weight distribution variation in the later years. Give up on the MK stuff...

Incidentally, can you do a year by year breakdown of the changes for a page on the site?

Back to the racing, without trying to sound cocky. The difference in skill level and experience level between the first 4 boats and the last 6 boats was so immense that I don't know if you can use 05 data to show that they might have been faster. Humphries had a crack team of local women on board, I grabbed a guy who is an up and comer who knows how to make slow pigs go fast and made him my tactician, Meinert has sailed his boat all over the country and Metzel had a number of guys with some time on the race course. I can't really speak for the others by boat, but 5-9 had an inboard, a windmill generator and a boat tricked out for mega long cruising, a couple of boats with seasoned racers without helm experience and some outright newbies.

Here is the scratch sheet - Meinerts boat has to be listed wrong all over the place....
http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/racing/apps_docs/scratchsheet.pdf

Here are the results...
http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/racing/apps_docs/results.pdf

Let me know about the chronology

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/12/2006 : 21:54:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> The difference in skill level and experience level between the first 4 boats and the last 6 boats was so immense that I don't know if you can use 05 data to show that they might have been faster. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Huh? How does the first part of that sentence relate to the last part? Swingers show up for regattas because they are easier to trailer. The only common thing between 05 and 06 is Bill, Longwind lost to three of four fins in 05 and to one of two in 05, (oops, Howell did not race), by the only fin.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2006 : 06:03:08

Meant 06.....not 05.

does that clear it up?

Edited by - on

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2006 : 06:52:34

Crimony!!! All this talk of Nationals is getting my juices going!!!

This newby raced last summer at Nationals and didn't have new sails, but had a new bottom job. In spite of me, we actually beat some people.

I didn't really have anything important to contribute to the conversation, I just can't wait til the next Nationals!!!!

Any idea when it will be posted on the Racing page? I need to schedule this with work and notify my crew.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2006 : 07:03:45

Ben,

Look for it to be the same weekend in June as it was last year.

I fogot to add in my post above, Humphries was a tall rig in really light air all week. You can't really compare the two with more sail area.

Edited by - on

Bruce Baker
Captain

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USA
402 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2006 : 09:12:57

The swing keel boat is definitely faster downwind with the keel up, at least in light air. The experiment I ran was this: we were running downwind and we being wound in slowly by a boat directly behind us. We pulled the keel up, and we slowly pulled away. My guess is that it made a 0.1 to 0.2 knot difference from a base speed of 1.0 knot. Last year, a rule was instituted to ban the practice.

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2006 : 12:37:31

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Bruce Baker
 The swing keel boat is definitely faster downwind with the keel up, at least in light air. The experiment I ran was this: we were running downwind and we being wound in slowly by a boat directly behind us. We pulled the keel up, and we slowly pulled away. My guess is that it made a 0.1 to 0.2 knot difference from a base speed of 1.0 knot. Last year, a rule was instituted to ban the practice.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I've pulled it up downwind whenever the rules allow, or better stated whenever the rules don't disallow, and have noticed the same in light air. Don't forget to drop it at the leeward mark however or you will be crabbing even in some of the lightest of breezes.

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