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Reefed main in all winds

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AADIVER
Admiral

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USA
966 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/07/2006 : 00:52:33

I solo'd today off Long Beach in 10 to 12 knots. A reefed main and the 110 jib was the best trim. When winds increased to 16+ I simply reefed the jib 50% and she heeled no more than 15% and maintained 5 plus knots underway. IMHO, a reefed main on a 250 works best in all winds above 5 knots. Agree? Disagree?

Frank Farmer
Long Beach, CA
aa.diver@verizon.net
http://mysite.verizon.net/aa.diver

PRETTY PENNY
'01 C-250 WK, Hull #558

Edited by - on

britinusa
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5404 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2006 : 07:15:20

Frank,we struggled with the sail balance, got some great advice from forum members and read more than the suggested books/articles on the subject.
Like you, we have the 110 jib and I'm now of the opinion that it is not the best sail choice when a furler is used.
With the furler, it's easy to reduce the jib size if the wind pops up, but the biggest issue (will confirm when we spring for a 135% jib) is the need for reefing the main to balance the small jib. So to some extent I agree with you.

The biggest difference we have made to date is the install of a 32gal water tank under the v-berth.

Someone on the forum explained about 'Center of Lateral Resistance'(CoLR) (The point about which the boat would rotate due to winds and other forces on the boat.) and the Center of Effort (CoE) and how the balance between the two affected the sailing ease & comfort.

If the Jib is having a greater affect on the COE than the Main, then the COE will be fwd of the best position and there will be an increase in lee helm. Similarly if the COE is moved aft (Main unreefed and 110%jib) then weather helm will be increased. But then you have to consider the CoLR. And that is why we added the water tank!

Without the fresh water tank(s) filled, the bow of the boat was out of the water! ie. the stern was low and the bow was up. This clearly would move the CoLR aft and the boat would tend to pivot around a point further aft. Now with a full main and the 110% jib, the COE is aft and with the stern low the CoLR is aft, the result is really ugly steering, constantly correcting the excessive weather helm. We would literally struggle to keep the boat on a straight line.
After adding and filling the new tank, the boat laid on an even keel, the blue line was parrallel to the water. Now we have a much better balanced boat. I'm now able to adjust the sail trim (even without reef below about 15knts of wind), lock the wheel for a while and move to make minor adjustments to the sheets etc. It has turned our sailing into a much more pleasurable experience.

An added benefit of the additional bow weight is the way the boat cuts through chop; a lot less hull slap and a more stable boat.

Several forum members have added weight in the form of bags of ballast; a much easier way to add the ballast. We use our tanks to wash down the boat at the parking lot so that we trail with them both empty.

So now it's time to save the sheckles for our future 135% jib. (donations welcomed!

)

Paul

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2006 : 09:19:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by britinusa
 Without the fresh water tank(s) filled, the bow of the boat was out of the water! ie. the stern was low and the bow was up. This clearly would move the CoLR aft and the boat would tend to pivot around a point further aft. Now with a full main and the 110% jib, the COE is aft and with the stern low the CoLR is aft, the result is really ugly steering, constantly correcting the excessive weather helm. We would literally struggle to keep the boat on a straight line.
After adding and filling the new tank, the boat laid on an even keel, the blue line was parrallel to the water. Now we have a much better balanced boat. I'm now able to adjust the sail trim (even without reef below about 15knts of wind), lock the wheel for a while and move to make minor adjustments to the sheets etc. It has turned our sailing into a much more pleasurable experience.

)

Paul
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I'm not sure how helpful it is to think of the CLR as a pivot point. The CE and CLR are both forces that can produce boat rotation (yaw) when they are out of balance but wherever these forces are exerted, the yaw of the boat will tend to be around a center keel or center board. My point is simply this, both of these forces could be forward of the centerboard and out of balance to produce a yaw force, and the yaw would likely be around the center board rather than the center of the unbalanced efforts.

It's kind of a nit picky item though and its not totally unreasonable to think of the CLR as pivot point, it certainly has traditionally been described that way.

There is however some flaw in the logic quoted above. Trimming the bow down worsens the relationships of CE and CLR and increases weather helm according to longstanding rules and logic whether thinking of the CLR as pivot or simply a yaw force center.

Actually, what you have encountered is the conundrum of explaining why trimming bow down eases weather helm when the dynamics of trimming bow down have historically been the opposite.

I got into a huge debate about this on the Trailer Sailor board a few years ago and a couple of salty Precision owners took me to great task for being so rediculous as to suggest that trimming the bow down could ease weather helm when every one knows that trimming the stern down eases weather helm.

I agreed with them that their logic was correct according to the dynamics of boat balance but suggested there could be other yaw forces that might yield a net plus for trimming the bow down.

At first, they weren't even willing to consider that other forces could exist or that they legitimately played into the balance equation. Only after pointed to newer definitions in Chapmans that make allowances for ALL FORCES to be factored, did they skulk away dismissing that trimming the bow down and getting weather helm relief as remaining unlikely.

The problem is that the equation has been historically restrictive and doesn't account for all forces contributing to yaw and these sailors had never encountered such other forces as to go contrary to the trim stern down to ease weather helm rule... nor had I until a lot of thought and reading was given to it.

Simply put... the 250 encounters another yaw force that supercedes the rule. It is this other yaw force that remains esoteric probably because it gives advantage to those who get it and they don't talk about it. I'm talking about the world of design. The effect can be good or nasty. A race boat can take advantage of it but for the designer of the cruising boat, it is so nasty that the builder certainly wouldn't want to talk about it because it yields excess leeway in trade for wide spacious cruising designs.

Who is going to advertise, "Wide Spacious Cabin" and add the words, "at the cost of excess leeway when heeled too far".

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5897 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2006 : 10:19:49

Frank, to answer your question, when the windspeed is only at or around 5 knots, I think it's too early to reef the mainsail. I've sailed a C250 a little bit, and think you would probably want to use the full mainsail and jib in winds up to somewhere around 12-15 knots. When the wind gets up to 14-15 knots, you could probably furl a little of the jib to keep her on her feet a little longer, but when the wind gets higher than that, you'll definitely want to tuck in a single reef. As the wind continues to rise, you'll want to roll up increasingly more jib. You'll be able to tell when you have the right combination of mainsail and jib for the conditions, because the boat will not be heeling excessively, and the tiller pressure will be nominal.

When you reefed that day in 10-12 knots, that was probably a little early, but not much. When the wind increased to 16+ knots, the single-reefed main and a slightly furled jib was just about right. It sounds like you had a good sail.

Edited by - on

bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2006 : 12:02:36

Having sailed my C250 WB for six years now, I really played with sail trim last summer/fall. Brandy sets pretty much level at the dock, with just a twelve pd anchor up front and maybe six feet of chain. Once I had the second reef installed I never played with the first reef. Last year with the centerboard raked aft, main with the second reef in and the genoa rolled in about half way, I felt very comfortable with just my series one rudder in pretty good whitecaps.
I have no way of measuring boat or wind speed but was able to maintain a 15 degree heel angle. That 1st generation rudder is scary and an IDA rudder has been on my wish list for a couple of years now.
15 degrees is about as far as I let her heel and still feel comfortable.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 12/07/2006 : 14:28:30

I haven't sailed my 250WK yet but I sure hope I don't have to reef at 5 knots! I am not so concerned about excess leeway (getting blown sideways?) because we just cruise for fun, no racing, and love the bigger cabin. All sailboats are compromises. If I wanted a sleek, high pointing ride, I would have stuck with the C22 fin (no head, no good sleeping area, low head room, etc).

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 12/07/2006 : 15:57:24

Randy, the 250 does need reefed before many other boats...but not at 5 mph winds.

As Frank points out, he was in 10-12 and was making 5+ knots so was beginning to reach higher drag levels where heeling begins.

The point is the 250 is a light boat with a lot of sail and gets close to hull speed pretty easy and beyond that needs some reefing.

Yes, a greater amount of leeway is a reasonable compromise for the family or cruising nature of this boat.

Regarding changing from a 110 to a 135 headsail, I think doing that depends very much on prevailing local conditions. If I sailed San Francisco Bay, I'd certainly stay with a 110. If most of the sailing was in light air, I'd want more than a 110.

The 110 makes a great cruising headsail on the Great Lakes. Cruisers don't sail much in light air and put up with flapping sails or swinging boom, nor will they suffer the heat and sometimes black flies when the wind is too light to get the boat moving. My rule of thumb is if the wind won't drive 2.5 mph, it's time to motor because very low throttle will double that.

Edited by - on

johnsonp
Admiral

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USA
606 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2006 : 19:01:15

In my own words..........
The 155 makes a great cruising headsail on the San Jauns and northword. Cruisers don't sail much in light air and put up with flapping sails or swinging boom, nor will they suffer the heat (awning) and sometimes black flies when the wind is too light to get the boat moving. My rule of thumb is if the wind won't drive you 2.5 mph SOG, it's time to motor because very low throttle will double that.
I keep my 110 as a spare just in case, you know why.

paulj C250WK #719

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aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 12/16/2006 : 08:21:59

I have a C25 which of course is a much heavier boat than the 250 and requires a tad more wind to get it moving. Until two years ago I normally reefed the main at around 15 mph wind speed. Then I added a new main with a fuller, more rounded roach. This addition necessitates that I reef the main at around 12 or 13 mph if I am to maintain control and keep the boat on her feet. I am able to keep a full jib (a 135)until around 15 mph however. Even though I am reefing earlier, I am still able to attain 5-6 knots or more.

The full roach main really helps in winds between 8 and 12 mph, where the extra sail area helps to get my heavier C25 up and going. The only liability is under 8 mph when the roach tends to hang up on the back stay because the wind isn't strong enough to push it past. Someday I hope to install an extension on the masthead which will move the back stay attachment farther back and minimize sail hangup.

My two cents.

Edited by - aeckhart on 12/16/2006 08:25:03

Turk
Admiral

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Response Posted - 12/17/2006 : 08:54:52

Frank

I've sailed my 250 now for two seasons on a large lake here in Ohio. Last year we raced a full season in many different conditions and most being over 12-15 mph wind speed. I've followed all the threads here about reefing past certain wind speeds and was able to test one of the theories. We had a day that the wind speed was 16-22 with gusts even higher. It was the perfect opportunity to single reef the main to see if healing at a lesser angle would be faster than full main and more heal. I committed to the reef before we left the mooring. The starter horn sounded and off we went reaching into the wind. I have a 250 WK and we were flying a 135 jib. On the first leg we were clearly being left behind by several nearby boats in my class. We were quite stable and clearly healing at a lesser angle, although I was pushing all I could. After 2/3 of the first leg we were last in my class - not good. I ordered my crew to clear the reef as I turned into the wind and we quickly brought the main up. Back into the race, we were now running at "full heal" and on the edge. We were clearly gaining on our rivals. Three miles later we passed the last one to come in first. I told my crew, we will never reef again. Our race committe will not send anyone out in 25 and above for safety reasons. They probably know that no one will reef!

I still feel through experience, that my 250 will travel faster with more sail up and at a very high heal angle as opposed to reefing and less heal. I've tried flattening the hull on the water to gain that supposedly faster shape, but it just doesn't seem to work for me. I am very conscience of sail shape, adjustment of rigging, and balancing of the boat. I do believe that the 250 has a problem out of the factory that it sits on it's butt too far. I've got a 13 gallon water tank in the bow (always full) and 2 Group 27 batteries (125 lb, I weighed them) mounted in the bow. Rear battery is out of the aft compartment. The balance of the boat is now quite remarkable. Day and night difference with almost no tendency to round up (we did not round up one time during any of 12 races - we did round up AFTER a race in a 40 mph gust). The boat points much better and feels entirely different and much more stable. Before I modified the boat, I got caught out in quite a blow and I will be the first to say the boat wanted to go sideways. Reefing helped, but the bow was being blown off course. I must have tacked 75 times into the wind trying to get back. Changing the weight distribution has made all the difference. I think most will agree on this point.

My advise to you would be don't furl the jib as much or at all when you reef the main. I found (mistakenly) that it is easy to turn in the jib cause it's easier than reefing the main. Pull in the jib too much and you lose all power to move forward causing other problems (pointing, tacking). I would agree on the reefed main first, then adjust the jib.

Edited by - on

Steve Raffel
Captain

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262 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2006 : 09:58:42

Turk, is that water tank the Plastimo tank that West Marine sells? Do you like it? I was thinking about adding one under my V berth. Do you have any details on how you installed the batteries up front. I'd like that idea but am concerned that the run between the outboard's alternator and the batteries is too far.

Thanks for you thoughts.

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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5404 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2006 : 11:03:59

Steve,
I have a 26gal oblong plastimo tank in the box, only used 1 time then replaced by the triangular tank. (The Tri-tank was my preference and the extra lbs was the deal maker.)

So now we have a 32 gallon water tank in addition to the standard 12 gallon tank up front, but we have the original and a new 2nd battery in the trunk.

I agree with Turk on the difference it makes in the boat balance, we now wit level in the water, previously bow up ("sit's on it's butt" described it very well

As far as the electrical cables from the O/B to up front batteries, you just need to ensure the wires a of the correct size and well supported, ie. not laying in the bilge. I wish Catalina would have a 'tube' that ran the entire length of the boat so we could run cables through it.

Ok, back to the yard work!

Paul

Edited by - on

Turk
Admiral

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Response Posted - 12/17/2006 : 13:50:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Raffel
 Turk, is that water tank the Plastimo tank that West Marine sells? Do you like it? I was thinking about adding one under my V berth. Do you have any details on how you installed the batteries up front. I'd like that idea but am concerned that the run between the outboard's alternator and the batteries is too far.

Thanks for you thoughts.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hi Steve

I have the tank that was installed at the factory (2003. I guess it is 12 gallon not 13. I have a whole series of pictures of my installation that I had planned on putting on my new website when I get around to it. Email me off line and I will send you all the info. Hint: I used the companionway cover as a template for the bow support. Needed narrowed slightly.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 12/17/2006 : 15:21:02

Paul, are your two tanks connected? If so how did you do that?

Edited by - on

britinusa
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5404 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2006 : 17:03:43

Randy, yes (partially!) I put valves in each line then T'd them under the galley locker floor. So the galley can get water from both tanks, but the head only gets supplied from the original tank, which is fine as we use very little water in the head. If I open both valves, then the two tanks equalize.

That is about to change though: The admiral has requested (hence it will happen!) that I change out the galley whale pump for a faucet. I already have the water pump installed. So my plan is to put a tee on each side of the pump. The outbound T will supply the new faucet and the washddown outlet. The input T will be connected to the two valves in the supply line from the two tanks.

The biggest problem that I foresee is removing the whale pump.

Paul.

Edited by - on

Russ.Johnson
Commodore

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Response Posted - 12/17/2006 : 18:10:26

Here's a link with pictures --> [url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13121"]Extra Water Tank for more Bow Weight[/url]

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Turk
Admiral

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USA
736 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2006 : 19:40:49

Here Steve, here is the link to my battery installation. One thing that is not shown is the battery straps I added later (hold down straps).

http://www.elmhurstprop.com/webbat/Photos.html

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Steve Raffel
Captain

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Response Posted - 12/17/2006 : 20:13:09

Thank you all for your info.

I removed my Whale Pump and found it difficult. What worked for me was to get a large size vice grip and hold the nut with that. It can be done but it wasn't easy.

Has anyone who increased the weight in the bow had a problem with rain water draining around the hatch? One year the boatyard set my boat too level and before I got the cover on, the rain water drained into the V berth.

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Turk
Admiral

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Response Posted - 12/17/2006 : 21:04:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Raffel
 

Has anyone who increased the weight in the bow had a problem with rain water draining around the hatch? One year the boatyard set my boat too level and before I got the cover on, the rain water drained into the V berth.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yep, if I forget to put the canvas cover on the "pop top" hatch, I will get a little water inside. The drain system was designed to drain back only if the boat sits on it's butt!

Edited by - on

Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 12/17/2006 : 21:14:58

Steve, I started with 300# forward, yes it caused the sliding hatch to leak. All that weight forward caused the rain water to run back under the sliding hatch. For muiltable reasons I started reducing the weight looking for that perfect balance. I'm down to 100 pounds now and she handles very well. I have the boat trimmed to my liking and also by making that adjustment it stopped the hatch from leaking. I'm thinking I hit the right amount of weight forward for my boat.

Edited by - Tom Potter on 12/17/2006 22:00:28

CaptRon400
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 12/25/2006 : 15:12:57

Strongly disagree about reefing in 6+ knots of wind. I have FINALLY sailed my wk 250. We got it down to Florida mid november and I waited for around 2 1/2 weeks for enough water to launch it. It needs around 5 feet to float it off the trailer. The 10 foot hitch extension was enough for the ramp at Ponce Inlet (Punta Gorda). The trucks tires just got a little wet, but it never got close to the brakes.

Anyway, in the last 3 weeks I've taken it out 5 times. Would have done more but I had other things to do also - including getting a 4 post lift installed to hold it, building a staircase to get to the lifted boat, and recovering from a nasty fall down the open companionway hatch. I'm not used to a 25 footer and stepped in the wrong place while trying to gather in the dropping main in a 15 knot breeze. Feel really stupid about doing this - should have realized the hatch spans nearly the entire cabin top.

The wind conditions during the 5 sails were varied, running from 5 knots to around 15. All the talk of weather helm got me interested in how the boat would handle, but I think it's controllable in 15 knots of wind with full sail. Did not have to reef either the 110 head sail or the full batten main. I did de-power the main a drop when it picked up, but chose to backoff the traveller / main sheet a little rather than reducing sail. Knot meter and corrected GPS both had us going 5 1/2 to near 6 knots while reaching, a little less when close hauled. I would probably start thinking reef if it went over 17 knots. But don't use me as an example - I won't reef my C400 until 25 or more. That's about 5 knots more than the rest of the world. As I said above, there are other ways to depower the main.

I do think the bow is on the light side - you can plainly see it by looking at the boat sitting in the water. It sits maybe 3 inches too high at the bow. Mine has the wheel steering, full galley and head / holding tank, with most of that extra weight aft. But I won't add bow weight until I figure out if it's really hurting the performance. It went thru Charlotte Harbor chop fairly well for a 25 footer.

After my first attempt at rigging I wound up with about a 13 to 14 percent load on all of the 5/32 wire. I'll play with the individual wires over the next few months to see what happens. The mast has a noticable rake because of the higher bow.

I do have one question / complaint about the head sail, shrouds and lifelines. Hey - it's nearly impossible to trim the damn thing without stetching the sail and/or sheet over at least one wire. I covered the shrouds with oversize plastic covers to minimize the impact. A 135 or 150 would seem to be even worse.

More to come.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 12/26/2006 : 12:27:09

Ron, I launch with a nylon strap instead of a trailer extender. I have used up to 70' of strap. You may want to consider that route if launching is a problem. Bummer about falling into the cabin. That must hurt! We learned never to sail with the hatch top open. I'm still not confident that the fiberglass sliding hatch window would support me either.

Edited by - on

CaptRon400
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 12/27/2006 : 08:28:46

Randy -

Thanks for the suggestion, but a longer pole or strap would not have helped the situation on most days at this ramp - I was at the "end" when launching. Going beyond would not have produced any significant gains in water depth, would have brought me into a 90 degree current (in the inlet) and I denititely did not want to go beyond the 4 inch raised lip at the end of the ramp. This ramp is 54 feet long with a stop at the deep end - although the water rarely gets within 10 feet of the beginning. There are other ramps in the area but I've heard they have similar specs (and problems). Since I plan on doing only one launch and retrieval a year down here, I'll learn to live with this.

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KD4AO
Navigator

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Response Posted - 12/27/2006 : 13:01:18

Hey there CaptRon, maybe we will see you out in the harbor or one of the canals in the near future. I will be picking my C250WK up in Sarasota Bay in mid-January probably bringing it dowm the ICW unless the weather is real good in which case I will go outside. I come in Ponce Inlet, along the rim canal to the lake and then north a ways. I sailed the 250WK about a week and a half ago in Sarasota Bay and immediatly experienced the same problems with the jib sheets. This is my first time with a 25, had 27 before Charley and 32 before that. Seems like this will be a fun boat for Charlotte Harbor. Bob

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CaptRon400
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 12/27/2006 : 14:55:47

Hi Bob -

Pick a nice day or two and sail it down. That's a lot better than motoring most of the way in the ICW with a little outboard pushing it. You'll have no trouble in Charlotte Harbor or the Ponce Inlet with it's 3'5" draft. I'm the first left turn on the rim canal after you make the right from Ponce. The 250 is a lot smaller than I'm used to - my other boat up north is a 400 that draws close to 6 feet. I have absolutely no chance of getting it thru Ponce on most winter days and that's why I picked up the trailerable 250. Have Boat, Will Travel.

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CaptRon400
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 03/16/2007 : 10:31:28

I went out the other day in a gusty 15 to 25 knot breeze on a choppy Charlotte Harbor (SW Florida) and I have to revisit this thread. The boat (wing keel. full batten main, 110 roller head sail) likes this kind of wind. I felt absolutely no need to reef either the main or small jib. Admittedly, it was heeling in the 25 to 30 degree range, but there were no control issues at all. When it got gusty and felt overpowerd, all I had to do was release the main sheet (or traveler) a little. Sort of like sailing a lightweight dinghy. Got the boat speed up to around 6.5 knots.

Frank - do you really reef the main in 6 knots of wind? At 6 knots I'd have the 9.9 Honda running. After 4 months of sailing with the 110 jib, I'm pretty sure I'd rather have a 135.

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