Association Forum - More questions

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

More questions

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

Member Avatar

USA
3444 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/19/2006 : 21:07:19

Well, the search is drawing nearer to a conclusion. I've had a boat surveyed. The problem now is, what do I do with that information. While the surveyor though it to be in "very good condition for its age" (me, too

) He found a few issues. BTW, she's an 83 SR/FK.

One is the aforementioned blisters. I'm not too worried about them. The next is:
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The positive wiring from the batteries to the battery switch does not have fuses or other circuit protection installed at the connection to the batteries. The positive wires are 10 gauge which is likely below the current capabilities of the 12 volt equipment. There are several loose, unsupported and abandoned 12 volt wires behind the DC fuse panel.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Are there any electrical folks out there that can tell me what kind of wire should be used? Does it really need a fuse before the circuit panel? I though that's what the panel was for.

He also found some issues with the fiberglass in two spots on the deck and one on the bottom. <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">There was a 6 inch oblong area on the starboard side keel trunk about 1 foot forward of the aft edge of the keel that sounded delaminated. Moisture readings were dry in this area.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The areas around the upper chain plates were moist-wet on the moiusture meter and sounding produced dull sounds indicating delamination. The starboard forward bow rail base was pushed downward into the deck. Moisture readings were wet around the base and sounding produced dull sounds. We were able to access the deck below the base and found the deck core to be deteriorated.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Finally
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The main teak bulkhead had evidence of water leakage from the chain plates on both port and starboard sides. The teak was water stained around and below the chain plate bolts. There were numerous areas on the inner hull that had brown colored stains and streaks. There was standing brown colored water in the bilge below the quarter berth. The companionway hatchboards showed evidence of long term water leakage. There was some evidence of water leakage below the cabin side windows in the form of stains.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
None of these things sound like show stoppers to me. But, I'm interested in hearing what the experts on this forum might think.

John Russell
1999 C250 SR/WK #410
Bay Village, Ohio
Sailing Lake Erie
Don't Postpone Joy!

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

3072 Posts

Response Posted - 12/19/2006 : 21:33:44

"Does it really need a fuse before the circuit panel? I though that's what the panel was for."

There should be a fuse in the positive lead right very close to the battery. It should be rated below the capacity of the wire from the battery to the distribution panel. Otherwise a short in this run of wire can start a fire. Wiring runs 'downstream' from the electrical panel are protected by fuses located in the panel.

"There was a 6 inch oblong area on the starboard side keel trunk about 1 foot forward of the aft edge of the keel that sounded delaminated. Moisture readings were dry in this area."

Dunno about this one. I don't think it's a typical spot to have delamination or damage... might be a part of the original layup. Tap around in there to look for yourself. I have a swing so I'm not that familiar with this area.

"The areas around the upper chain plates were moist-wet on the moiusture meter and sounding produced dull sounds indicating delamination. The starboard forward bow rail base was pushed downward into the deck. Moisture readings were wet around the base and sounding produced dull sounds. We were able to access the deck below the base and found the deck core to be deteriorated."

Common on older, neglected boats. The extent of repairs needed would have to be evaluated. They can range from drying the core with acetone and saturating with penetrating epoxy to removal of deck structure and re-coring. Not sure if the surveyor was really talking about core in the bow area or the more typical plywood 'underlayment' found there. (which is easier to replace than a core sandwiched between two layers of fiberglass).

"The main teak bulkhead had evidence of water leakage from the chain plates on both port and starboard sides. The teak was water stained around and below the chain plate"

Again a common aliment. The windows, toe rail, chainplates, deck hardware (etc) usually need to be re-sealed and re-bedded on older boats this is just 'normal maintenance'. However, the bulkhead should be inspected closely for rot or other deterioration around the chainplates.

All of the above areas have been repaired by folks who post here and searching the forums and tech areas will give information on how to do it. Depending on severity, the repairs do take some time, a place to work, a few tools and some basic competency at 'fixin stuff'. They are usually not big tickets items on materials.

However, if you have to pay someone else for the labor to make repairs, it can get expensive.
How much are they asking for the boat? You probably have some areas to negotiate the price downward based on what has been found. If you're not prepared to do some basic repair & restoration work, I'd keep looking.

Edited by - on

bear_tm4
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
143 Posts

Response Posted - 12/19/2006 : 22:08:46

John, I also have a 83 SR/FK, When I looked at my boat befor I bought her I found a lot of similare type problems...The leaks you mention come from multiple sources. The first that you mentioned where the chain plates...on mine I took up the plates that coverd them as they entered the deck pulled out the little screws coated them with a good caulk type sealent and then put it all under the plates, then tightened to whole thing back up, took all of about 30 min maybe little more to do the work...I am in Ky and it rains like nuts...and have not noticed more leakeage from that location..the next area I am looking at is the brown streaks...I beliver this comes from the stanchions at least in my case. This spring I am going to pull them all one at a time and reseal them all, hopefully wont run into any problems. Know Wireing...I am not much on it...but I can tell you that mine is a mess, dont have to know much to look at it tell that it likes like a mokey wired it, but I plan this spring to clean it up and find a partner that has some sense in that area, it cant be to hard its only 1 or 2 battery system...depending on how you are arranged, and what electronics the boat has...mine is fairly simply lights, radio, instuments (that dont work) and thats pretty much it. The delamination of the Keel area you mentioned...I have the same problem..on the stb side of my keel....I am going to have it reparied...that can cost...but only going to have cosmetic...make sure no more water intrusion from outside to in...I also have a crack at the base of the keel where it I think got water inside and it froze and cracked..Kansas winters can be hard on a boat. I have same plan for that area, then going to have the entire bottom of the boat taken down to glass, then have a epoxy barrie coat put on then have a good bottom paint put on. This is one are that I wont spare the cash, she spends lots of time in the water so want the job done good and right. (is a little pricey 2500 -3000 where I am having it done..but its worth it in my book) now you can do some of the work yourself...but I am going to have the first job done then in the following years I will do the bottom work myself...mainly cleaning and painting I can do that...dont like grinding on bottom..though have done it. Next area of the keel that I am going to work on is the bolts that hold the keel onto the boat. I check mine out seem to be in pretty good shape, but I am going to put a good coating of paint and then sealent over them...there is the possablity that the water in te keel came from inside the boat. I have friend with a Catalina 30 he had that problem..water got inside the keel from water in the bilge, water froze and cracked the glass sheathing the keel...so might consider checking the keel bolts. oh blisters, have same problem..but not sever, just pin points...so fixing that with the take down and barrier coat. also considering the water you will sail in good bottom paint I would think, so take advice in that area from boaters in your area...but its not as bad as salt....
Ok last but not least...as long as the bulkhead is not damaged and you stop the leaks it should be fine...if it is damaged then thats not my area...there are plenty of guys here that lots to say on replacing them...but not a job I want...I want to sail...and if had to replace bulkheads that guy in Ks would still have the boat...lol..so thats my two cents...oh what about transport got that solved....sorry wasnt as helpfull as I would have like to be for you needed..but if I can help in some way, I would love to..cheers..

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

Members Avatar

844 Posts

Response Posted - 12/20/2006 : 00:59:11

Newer ABYC boat electrical standards require fuses at batteries. Older standards didn't, figuring the fuses would protect the circuits. They do, but the fuse at the battery protects the line from the battery to the fuse panel. Buy a basic book on boat wiring, Don Casey comes to mind, not something you can't do yourself, and not something that was built in when the boat was originally built.

When we had our C25 I was horribly "afraid" of electricity. Then I bought a book and learned about it. It's rather simple, especially the 12V stuff.

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

Members Avatar

USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 12/20/2006 : 06:00:32

I would simply install an inline fuse on the positive line from the battery, it's an easy to do upgrade. If you don't have the crimper, then it will cost more for the tool (well worth it) than the bits (Harbor Freight sells the crimper for about $19, don't use one of the simple crimpers.) Oh! and if you do that, then tape a spare fuse to the wire!

The unused wires behind the panel are probably there because they were too difficult to remove, just make sure they are unable to vibrate loose and sneak up on the panel connections, you don't know where the other ends are!

Paul

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 12/20/2006 : 09:37:40

If it is under 5k and you like it buy it, otherwise I would find a boat in better shape. I would not buy a boat with core and bulkhead problems, honestly, I would never have had that boat surveyed; stains on the bulkheads equal PASS to me. Water marks on the interior are the first thing I look for and bulkhead stains are a stopper.

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 12/20/2006 : 10:00:11

John R,

None of the survey issues you described would discourage me in the least from buying the boat. Most of them sound quite typical of these and similar boats the same general vintage on the market.

If I may presume, a person shopping for a C-25 likely does not have an unlimited boat budget. Boats require regular maintenance to remain safe and usable. Almost all older boats could benefit from some upgrades. Those who can afford to have all such work hired out probably aren't in the C-25 tax bracket to begin with.

My point is, you will be doing a lot of your own work on this, or any other boat you finally settle on. So pick up a couple DIY sailboat repair books (Don Casey's "This Old Boat", and "Sailboat Electrics Simplified" for example), and try to think of working on your own boat as part of the whole sailing experience.

At first, you'll be playing catch up on neglected maintenance, etc. After an initial puch to get the boat usable, the maintenance work part of ownership will level off, and you can start catalog dreaming of improvements.

By all means, take advantage of the friendly helpful knowledge and experience available from this group.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 12/20/2006 : 10:18:23

I agree rather strongly with Frank on this one. That boat sounds much too "wet" in too many areas. There are much better buys in C25's.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/20/2006 : 12:45:46

I'm reluctant to weigh in without seeing it, but I agree with Leon's perspective. (I usually do.) The surveyor's "very good for its age" summary is an indication he saw no show-stoppers, even though he'll never say that (for legal reasons).

My '85 had some stains on the port bulkhead, but the plywood was sound. (It's not "teak"--just teak-veneered plywood with a fairly low-grade core.) Like others, I re-sealed the chainplates from above--one of the easiest jobs on the boat. Stanchions are a standard, recurring issue creating brown seepage and requiring rebedding every 5-10 years. (Unbolt, campfer the holes slightly from above, apply polysulfide caulk (never polyurethane), hand-tighten the nuts from below, let the caulk set up, and then wrench-tighten the nuts from below with somebody holding the screws from above so they don't turn and break the seal around them.) Leon also prescribes drilling oversized holes, filling with thickened epoxy, and re-drilling--just one of the reasons anyone who gets to buy his boat some day will be getting the most solid C-25 on the planet. (I hear him saying "from my cold, dead hands!")

Every boat, like every house, goes in one of two directions during its ownership--either better because somebody cared, or worse because they didn't. Here's a chance to take the latter and make it the former.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 12/20/2006 13:23:32

mashedcat
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
194 Posts

Response Posted - 12/20/2006 : 17:58:36

You can use a swaging tool for crimping

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 12/20/2006 : 18:15:33

Leon has really hit the nail on the head. It really is about the checkbook.

The bulkhead show signs of water but sounds solid without any evidence of rot.

The re-bedding process sounds simple enough. I'm kinda looking forward to the maintenance and really do see that as part of the total experience. But, I'm not looking for a "project boat".

I guess I really need to get a fiberglass guy to give me an estimate of the work. While I'm pretty good at following instructions, I would never feel real confident that my ability to make a repair at the base of the upper shroud that would keep the mast from hitting me on the head someday.

I assume I need to calculate the total potential amp consumption to appropriately size the fuse?

Since I've been reading this forum, you guys are clearly among the contributors I've given the most credence. Thanks for your help.

Edited by - John Russell on 12/20/2006 18:23:45

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

3072 Posts

Response Posted - 12/20/2006 : 18:54:37

"calculate the total potential amp consumption to appropriately size the fuse?"

Correct. To size the 'primary' circuit, add up all the expected loads
or as an alternative you could use the rating of the distribution panel.
(provided it is adequate). Remember you're not just sizing the fuse, but
must also have the proper wire size (gauge).

Note that all boat wiring should use marine-rated 'tinned' wire so it doesn't corrode. It's a bit more expensive than regular wire, but the good part is that you don't need that much of it.

Here's a short reference... http://www.boatus.com/boattech/CircuitProtect.htm

"make a repair at the base of the upper shroud that would keep the mast from hitting me on the head "

The upper shroud is anchored to the main cabin bulkhead. That's why it's important to check for rot around the chainplate bolts.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/20/2006 : 23:08:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 I guess I really need to get a fiberglass guy to give me an estimate of the work. While I'm pretty good at following instructions, I would never feel real confident that my ability to make a repair at the base of the upper shroud that would keep the mast from hitting me on the head someday.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Not sure what you're thinking here... Fiberglass has little to do with that chainplate--it goes thru the deck and, as Clam says, is anchored to the bulkhead. A small frame is screwed to the deck. To fix the leak, unscrew the frame, slide it up, dig out as much old sealer as you can, squirt some caulk down around the chainplate, and screw the plate back down. Some will gasp, but I used silicone sealer for this application, primarily because I know the chainplate moves up and down slightly in that opening, and I wanted maximum elasticity with good adhesion. There aren't many other places where I'd use it on the boat.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I assume I need to calculate the total potential amp consumption to appropriately size the fuse?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The size of the fuse should be limited by the recommended amperage for the wire from the battery to the panel. Then, the next question is whether that's sufficient for your expected loads. If not, you need to upgrade the wire so you can use a larger fuse.

Edited by - on

mashedcat
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
194 Posts

Response Posted - 12/21/2006 : 00:05:50

Leon already suggested the electrical book I recommend. Don Casey's, Sailboat Electrics. It's easy to read, informative and a bargain for what you get. He has also come out with a new one which has everything and more for a C25 owner. It's an encyclopedia of sailboat maintenance and repair. The electrics book will explain how to figure your wire sizes based on demand, length of run etc. If you feel rich, get the big one.
Here's a link to the new 'big' book.
http://www.amazon.com/Caseys-Complete-Illustrated-Sailboat-Maintenance/dp/0071462848/sr=1-1/qid=1166720908/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-6497239-6854428?ie=UTF8&s=books

Edited by - mashedcat on 12/21/2006 11:09:52

britinusa
Web Editor

Members Avatar

USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 12/21/2006 : 07:02:21

If you are looking for the book, then consider using the links page! Earn the Assoc some dollairos.

Paul

Edited by - on

mashedcat
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
194 Posts

Response Posted - 12/21/2006 : 10:30:21

Good idea, I was just showing the title. I just changed the link to take you to amazon

Edited by - mashedcat on 12/21/2006 11:11:54

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 12/21/2006 : 13:37:57

try this link, it will give the assn the $$ the other won't unless you already have the cookie on your pc

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0071462848?ie=UTF8&tag=catalina25250-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0071462848">Don Casey's Complete Illustrated Sailboat Maintenance Manual

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 12/21/2006 : 15:49:46

Dave,

You really turned a light bulb on. I knew that the shroud was supported by the chainplate/bulkhead combination. But, I assumed that the deck also provided significant structural support to the shroud. If it simply provides a "pass through" then this problem, while important to attend to, isn't as critical to the safety of the boat as I've been worrying about. The dull sounding areas were around a square foot (or less) in area. The decomposition under the pulpit the surveyor spoke of must have been the underlayment mentioned above since he didn't do any destructive inspection of the fiberglass. So, although he said "core" he couldn't have gotten to the core withour breaching the glass.

Uh-oh, I'm rationalizing here.

I'm going to order the Casey big book from Amazon. It looks like a good book to have regardless of my choice of boats. But I'll wait till I return from visiting the outlaws next week so that it doesn't sit on my front porch for a week. I'll use the association link.

Edited by - John Russell on 12/21/2006 15:51:38

mashedcat
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
194 Posts

Response Posted - 12/21/2006 : 15:50:07

Duane
I got that link by clicking on the left screen link to amazon. How come yours shows the 25250 in the line and mine doesn't? Do I have to physically do something to get the cookie? I thought cookies came from the site you were going to, or elves.

Edited by - mashedcat on 12/21/2006 16:11:52

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 12/21/2006 : 17:11:12

John R,

Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I could have been about "None of the survey issues you described would discourage me..." Your quotes from the survey didn't necessarily describe the questionable areas in enough detail for me to say, "Sure, no problem!" or "Run away, it's a money pit!" As Dave B pointed out, if the surveyor saw anything he considered really serious, he would have said so, and you would have relayed it. Such issues as wet core and delaminated areas are matters of degree. Core which is wet for a few inches around a leaking deck penetration, and is just starting to blacken from rot and loose fiber strength within a fraction of an inch of the leak, isn't something I'd be alarmed by. The fix is very easy, requiring little in the way of time, tools, materials, skills, or blind faith. Several square feet of mushy deck (entire cockpit sole for instance) would require a much more involved repair procedure, and might not be the ideal place to start learning fiberglass boat repair.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 ...I knew that the shroud was supported by the chainplate/bulkhead combination. But, I assumed that the deck also provided significant structural support to the shroud. If it simply provides a "pass through" then this problem ... isn't as critical to the safety of the boat... The dull sounding areas were around a square foot (or less) in area. The decomposition under the pulpit the surveyor spoke of ... he couldn't have gotten to the core...

Uh-oh, I'm rationalizing here.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This isn't necessarily "rationalizing", as in practicing denial. It's more like carefully analyzing the situation in order to make a wiser, more informed decision.

You're right about the side deck not carrying a lot of the upper shroud tension.

My C-25 came with extensive rot in the plywood under the foredeck ahead of the anchor locker as a result of poorly repaired pulpit damage years before. I replaced that entire triangle of plywood from below, working through the anchor locker hatch. Again, how big a deal this is depends on the size of the actual rot. And let's be clear dampness and rot are distinctly different conditions. If it's difficult to push an awl or icepick into even wet discolored wood, then the wood is probably not so weak as to need replacing. (Aesthetics being an entirely different matter.)

As for water streaks on the interior woodwork, my C-25 interior wood seemed to have had a water soluble tinted wax finish when I got it. Water drips or even spatters made it look damaged and deteriorated. As an experiment, I removed some smaller teak and plywood shelves, scrubbed them with acetone, fine sanded, rinsed with more acetone, and applied marine varnish. All signs of age and neglect disappeared!

Regarding fuses, wiring, etc. The purpose of a fuse is to protect the wire attached to it, and has little direct relationship to the expected current load. Wire size should be selected based on anticipated max current load. Got that? If someone installs a 25w (12V) light using 10ga wire, a 30A fuse is OK -- it doesn't need a 5A fuse. Similarly, wiring a 100A electric starter with 16ga wire would be a really bad idea! A 150A fuse appropriate for the load wouldn't prevent the wire from starting a fire. A 10A fuse, which would protect the wire, wouldn't handle the starter motor current. Get and read the Casey book -- it's all in there. If you read the archives of this message board, you'll see the electrical system is one of the area of a recently purchased C-25 most frequently in need of repair and upgrading.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 12/21/2006 : 20:25:09

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mashedcat
 Duane
I got that link by clicking on the left screen link to amazon. How come yours shows the 25250 in the line and mine doesn't? Do I have to physically do something to get the cookie? I thought cookies came from the site you were going to, or elves.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The cookies are for Santa not the elves. Cookies come from Amazon, but not unless you get the right page to start.

if you click on the link at the left you will eventually get redirected to the page for the book before you really see what is happening. If you right click and copy the shortcut you would have gotten what I did. Incidentally, when I pulled up the page there was something else displayed...I think it was get rid of boat odors....so I went to a link generator that created the link for me at Amazon.

dw

Edited by - on

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.