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brian
Deckhand

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USA
23 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/25/2006 : 00:49:36

I have mostly sailed our boat with 110 headsail and full main, however when I bought the boat there was also a 135 & 150 headsail.

My question is now that I am pretty confident with my abilities, when do I put up the other sails? What I am looking for is something like:

Wind:
0-5 kts: 150?
5-10 kts: 135?
10-15 kts: 110?
15-20 kts: 110?
20-25kts: 110? no main/reefed main?

Also when I bought the boat the previous owner told me 20 degrees heel is where I want to be. Passing 30 degrees is over powered. Is this true for our boats?

Thanks guys
Brian
Catalina 25

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 12/25/2006 : 07:21:25

Sails are cut differently and have stretched differently, your suite of sails may not act like the next guy's. In Kansas we carry a 150 up to about 12 knots, on a lake like ours that is when you begin seeing white-caps. If a person has a 135, (which most do not) it is good for 10-17 knots, which is into solid whitecaps with mild gusts. The 110 pops out at 15 and above, many stock 110s are very full cut or have become blown out, like stock Catalina 25 sails. A fresh 110 that is cut for high wind is fine well into the mid 20s but after that an 80 is very nice to have. One thing I have learned about these boats is that the hull does not have a great deal of hull form stability, we have rounder chines than some boats and so I find keeping a Catalina 25 very flat to be difficult, boring and slow. I think your friend was right with the 20 degree suggestion and for me up to 35 degrees is very common, my feet are often on the leeward seatback in a blow. One thing that is reassuring is that after you have established that your rig is in good repair these little boats are very strong and finding your personal limits will be well within the real limits of the boat. One other thing, do what you like to do, if putting the rails in the water is fun then do it, nod understandingly when those on shore tell you that you would have made better time with less leeway if you stood your boat up, and keep sailing how you want; you see, from shore they can't see the grin on your face.

Edited by - on

brian
Deckhand

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USA
23 Posts

Response Posted - 12/25/2006 : 11:26:12

Thanks for your reply.. That is kinda what I was figuring. My wife still gets scared after about 25 degrees so I doubt I will be dipping the rails anytime soon. However we didn't use either of the larger sails last season at all and thought to myself, what a waste. So I thought I would ask so I can throw one up and let it air out. Just didn't want to dip the rail right off the bat and have my wife punching me while I try and get it back down..hahaha

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 12/25/2006 : 11:46:09

Brian, one solution -- unless you want to be a serious racer -- is to bite the bullet and put a roller furler on your forestay. A well-designed headsail with a foam luff to help shape the sail when partially furled will solve all the questions about which sail to use when. The really nice thing about a roller is that when the wind kicks up and you have too much headsail, you don't have to go forward to take down and replace a big sail on a heaving deck.

Otherwise, which sail you use depends on what keel you have (a fin keel will keep you more upright than a wing, etc.), how much rail meat you can hang to windward, your comfort level at different degrees of heel, etc. I'm not sure I agree with Frank in his analysis of form stability: the C25 is a pretty fat boat, and form stability increases (all other things being equal) with proportional width. What we don't have is a lot of weight stability -- our keels are relatively shallow and light, even with the fin. The reason the boat goes faster at a moderate heel is that you've lengthened the water line and reduced the wetted surface of the boat, so there's less friction. When the angle of heel gets too big, you're just putting less sail in the air, which slows you down. It's a constant balancing act between all the forces, which is what makes sailing so interesting!

When you have too much main up and you have the tiller pulled to windward to correct weather helm, that slows the boat down dramatically. As one description says, it's like towing a bucket behind the boat. There are some ironic pictures on this site by brethren sailing their boats on their ear, showing how fast they think they're going. In some of those pics, the tiller is hard to windward, which shows how far out of trim the boat is.

When there's lots of wind, many of us find that the C25 sails better with just a small (or furled) headsail and no main at all. It depends on your point of sail, but last summer I did a twelve hour sprint down the Chesapeake in 25 - 30 knots of wind with a scrap of furled jib alone. I was averaging five knots and was in control the whole time. I have a tall rig and swing keel, and find that when the wind gets much above 12 knots I need to reef the main to keep the boat in trim.

"Your mileage may vary."

Brooke

Edited by - Brooke Willson on 12/25/2006 11:51:31

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 12/25/2006 : 17:15:03

With regard to the question of form stability vs. ballast stability, I come down between Frank and Brooke. A boat with hard chines is very stable up to a point, and then, when it heels too far, it loses it's stability very suddenly and rounds up almost violently to windward. If the sailplan is well balanced on a boat with rounder chines (like the C25) it continues to heel more and more, but it's much less likely to suddenly lose it's stability and round up, and if it does round up, it's not nearly as violently as on a boat with hard chines. What I love about the C25 is that it doesn't rely primarily on either it's ballast or it's hull form for it's stability. It uses a combination of the two, which gives it a gentler, more predictable behavior than many other boats.

But, your primary question is with regard to how much sail area your boat can carry without heeling excessively. The answer to that question partially depends on how well you trim the sails, because, if the sails are poorly trimmed, the boat will heel more in less wind. A boat with well trimmed sails can carry more sail area in stronger winds, while still remaining on her feet. So, to a certain extent, we can't give a precise answer to that question.

If you're a cruiser, then Brooke's suggestion that you use a roller furler is the ideal solution, although it's expensive if you have to convert the boat and sails to a roller furling system. If you have hank on sails, and don't want that expense, you can continue to use hank on sails. With that system, you only have to change headsails if the windspeed changes so much that it is outside the range of the sail. Usually it doesn't change that much in a day, but it does happen.

All I had on my C25 was a 150, a 110 and a storm jib. The 150 is usable from 0 to about 14-15 kts. I used the 110 from about 15 kts. to about 20-21 kts. Since the 110 was my smallest sail, except for the storm jib, sometimes I just had to make do with it in stronger winds. If you have a 130, I'd have to guess that its ideal range would start at about 12-13 kts. and go up to about 16-17 kts.

A sailor who's still in the learning process should reduce sail area sooner. As you gain more experience, you'll pay less attention to the windspeed and more attention to the boat's behavior. (Most of us don't have the instruments to measure windspeed very accurately on small boats.) But, even without wind instruments, you'll learn how to see the indications that the boat is starting to labor under too much sail. When you see those indications, you'll know that it's time to reduce sail area, no matter what the actual windspeed might be. You'll learn from experience when the boat is heeling excessively, and you'll feel the excessive tiller pressure. Those are the indicators to look for.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 12/26/2006 : 12:37:43

Brian,

When I bought my first boat, it came with a nearly new, original 110 and a well used genoa. For the greater part of my first season, I only used the 110, but after I got a little confidence, I threw on the genoa. Once I made the switch, I understood why the 110 was still like new compared to the genoa...it was the better sail for the conditions that I generally sail in and it was a lot more fun.

I suggest you throw on the 135 and see what it'll do. It's better than a 110 in lighter winds and better than a 150 in stronger winds.

Edited by - on

brian
Deckhand

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USA
23 Posts

Response Posted - 12/27/2006 : 18:35:09

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 
I suggest you throw on the 135 and see what it'll do. It's better than a 110 in lighter winds and better than a 150 in stronger winds.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Threw the 135 up today and was doing great in about 10mph winds. That last about 1 hour then winds jumped up to 15 - 20 and 20 - 25 gusts. So I pulled all sails down and put up the 110 again. We sailed with the headsail only for about 3 hours, making really good time too.. We stayed about 20 to 25 degrees with just the 110..

Oh and the wind speeds are a guess as I have no meter.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 12/28/2006 : 20:17:37

We carried a 155 through 22kt gusts during the 0-6 Nationals. We did have a guy or two on the rail at all times and dumped the main about 2 seconds before the skipper would have lost all helm. There were also really flat seas that day because the wind was out of the south.

My point - it really depends on how much you want to work, how much ballast in the form of people are on board, how wet they want to get and what makes sailing enjoyable for you.

For cruising -
150 to about 12 -14kts and then probably reef depending on wind direction and waves and would carry that until about 16.

135 at about 14-18 kts and then reef to about 20

The 90 will only go up if we are looking for a real relaxing sail or if its spitting bullets out. Or if we are trolling for walleye - it without a main is the perfect combination.

I'd have to play around above 20 kts - because 99 times out of 100 if there are 25 knot winds we either wouldn't get out of the breakwall, or once we did we would have 6-8 footers about 3 seconds apart. Not worth trying to figure out a sail combination when you either can go or don't want to go sailing.

Edited by - on

brian
Deckhand

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USA
23 Posts

Response Posted - 12/29/2006 : 15:48:06

That other day the winds were pretty strong.. I was getting wet from the spray off the bow.. We had about 2 to 3 foot waves.. It was awesome going downwind though.. I was thinking about maybe getting a 50% headsail for days like that. Most of the time I run the boat myself while the wife tends to the kids and relaxs lol.. But when things are nice she likes to take the helm.. So with a 50% I might have been able to get a break that day. Don't see myself ever using my 150%. That thing is just to huge to mess with for my cruising style haha..

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