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Crack in my Hull!

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C25Guy
1st Mate

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USA
37 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/07/2007 : 00:52:37

Ok, finally time to consult the experts. My boat has recently begun taking on water. It is a very slow leak, probably 30 gallons per week or so. I do believe I have pinpointed the source. There is a crack in the bottom of the hull leading forward from the swing keel trunk. Anyone ever seen anything like this?

Astute observers will notice bilge water dripping out of there... I assume this may have been from a grounding or bad luck when loading it onto the trailer, but the direction of the stress is not what I would have expected from either of those scenarios. Any comments on how to fix this ($$$ estimate) or how it happened? Thanks in advance!

Alan
"Maggie Mae"
C-25 #2815 SR/SK

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2007 : 05:25:27

yeah a lot of guys. take a look at swing keel repair in the tech tips section

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2007 : 06:20:23

I cannot see your photos, did you follow forum requirements for posting? If you did not then you may be the only one who can se them. If you need to have it repaired professionally then labor will be significant on removing the keel, you might want to consider a wing retrofit. I love my wing.

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 02/07/2007 06:22:23

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2007 : 06:43:52

Alan, your pics are being referenced as on your Drive C: so the world cannot see them.
Please check out this [url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2623"]link for advice on how to post pics[/url]

Paul

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2007 : 08:22:40

Welcome to the group, Alan! Yes, this is not terribly uncommon--it's likely to be FSKS (fallen swing keel syndrome), caused by 1500# of cast iron swinging down at the acceleration rate of gravity due to a broken cable or fastening when it was in the up position, and is stopped by the hull structure at the forward end of the keel trunk. Why now? I dunno... It may have been repaired, and the stress of raising the keel may have unrepaired the repair... Use the Search function in the forum header above, specify Catalina 25 Specific Forum, and enter some words like "swing" and "leak" and see what you get. One discussion was very recent, however FSKS was not verified.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/07/2007 08:32:37

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2007 : 10:10:13

C25Guy,

Sorry to hear that you're having difficulties with a leaky swing keel trunk. When I bought my boat, it came with a similar crack in the aft area of the swing keel trunk, which was evident after we removed the wood cabinet housing the trunk.

There were two things I did...

First, I had a local professional marine fiberglass guy come out and give his assessment of the situation. His looked at the crack in the trunk, then got under the boat with a flashlight to see the damage to the long shallow trunk that the swing keel cranks up into. The long shallow part of the trunks showed evidence of a crack about 2 or 3 feet long just starboard of the centerline of the trunk. The professional said the crack my only be cosmetic, or if left un-resolved, could develop into a crack that allowed water into the bilge. The way to repair such a crack would be to cut up the floor in the cabin to access the keel trunk from the top. The cost for this would have been almost as much as a wing keel retofit would have been.

In the meantime he heavily and thoroughly repaired the keel trunk that was exposed in the cabin, and we sailed this way for the rest of the season with no problems at all. This cost us about $200.00.

The second thing we did was over the next winter. We switched out the swing to a wing, so we wouldn't have to worry about what may have been a dangerous crack in the long shallow part of the keel trunk.

So basically, have a professional look at your boat and maybe you just need to repair the exposed part of the keel trunk that is in your cabin, which is pretty inexpensive.

Edited by - on

C25Guy
1st Mate

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USA
37 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2007 : 10:23:09

Ok guys, thanks for the patience. I think I've got it. Contrary to the experience of some others, the crack leads forward from the keel trunk, with only an inch or so going up into the trunk. Lets see if I've figured this picture posting out:

How about those?

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2007 : 10:38:44

I would not think the keel could come that far forward unless there is damage inside at the head. Have you inspected under the box that covers the head.
You also need to evaluate the rest of the swing system. What is the condition of the winch, the cable, the lifting eye on the keel, etc. We had a boat with a bad eye on the keel that failed that caused the keel to crush the hull when it broke free.

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2007 : 11:29:13

Alan,

If that damage were on my boat, I'd fix it myself. Here's a rough overview of how I'd proceed:<ul><li>Determine the extent of the damage. Literally, how far the crack extends. I'd start on the outside by sanding down (up?) past the paint, gelcoat, and mat to solid laminate. This will almost certainly involve removing the keel, but may not require butchering up the hull liner.</li>
<li>Once you determine the size, shape, and location of the required repair, grind out the damaged fiberglass from the outside (until you run out of crack, or reach the bilge, whichever comes first). If you break through into air, don't widen that gap, just taper back from it. Grind back a 12:1 (or more shallow) taper around the removed damage.</li>
<li>After grinding, rough sand with an eye to allowing cloth to lay up smoothly without sharp bends, kinks, or voids.</li>
<li>Clean, clean, clean with acetone. Maybe sand some more.</li>
<li>Using fiberglass cloth, maybe around 14oz, build up laminate back to original hull thickness and shape. (Slightly more, actually.)</li>
<li>Start by cutting about 5 or 6 layers cloth patches to cover the entire ground down area, plus extend slightly past the edges. Lay those in with top quality epoxy resin. Repeat, working with several layers at a time. How many layers is limited by heat buildup and the surface of the repair getting so uneven you can't tell what's thick enough, and where it needs more layers.</li>
<li>When the repair gets lumpy like that, stop and let it harden. Using a fairing batten, identify the high spots, grind off the peaks, grind the whole surface of the repair to smooth and gentle enough curves that you can resume laminating.</li>
<li>Repeat until the whole repaired area is slightly too thick. (Stands proud of the original fair surface.)</li>
<li>Grind and sand the slightly too thick and lumpy patch back to original and fair surface contour.</li>
<li>Sand smooth and apply barrier coat.</li>
<li>Reapply bottom paint</li>
<li>Reinstall keel.</li>
<li>Go sailing!

</li></ul>
-- Leon Sisson

P.S.:
While you're sanding back paint and gelcoat to assess the damage, do the same around where the keel pivot attaches to the hull. Finding more damage there wouldn't be a show stopper for me, but you'd want to know about it, so as to include it in the repair planning. On my C-25, that area of the hull layup was a bit long on resin and air bubbles, and short on fiber. That unfortunate combination of materials is more prone to stress cracks, so I think it's worth the bit of extra work to take a close look.

When first diving into a repair like this without a lot of experience, every little bit of material removed looks like a monumental amount of work to replace. It's not. Once you get into the job, you'll see removing and replacing fiberglass goes quickly. I'd expect the most time consuming and aggrevating work steps will be getting the repair fair (enough), and removing, then reinstalling the keel.

Tools you'll need include a 4"-5" right angle grinder, a 7" disk sander, and a 3/8" drill motor with an assortment of sanding drum attachments to get up inside the keel trunk. If shopping for a drill motor, take into consideration the amount of space inside that trunk head area. It would suck to buy one too fat to fit up in there. Without power at your work site, consider a small generator too. You might be able to beg, borrow, rent, buy used, or resell some of this equipment when you're done if you'd rather store the cash than the tools.

-- LS

Edited by - Leon Sisson on 02/07/2007 13:16:34

C25Guy
1st Mate

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USA
37 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2007 : 12:04:29

Thanks for the input guys. What I've heard here is alot better than, "Time to go boat shopping!"

Frank, the exposed trunk area is shown below. It seemed ok and was very sturdy.

I feel like I should show her good side, too. Here she is after getting caught out in a nice cool summer storm:

There's no electrical hookup where the boat is stored, and I'm an apartment dweller, so I'm not sure whether I'll tackle this thing myself. I'll let everyone know what happens.

Edited by - on

djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1561 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2007 : 13:42:44

Hi Alan, the first thing that came to mind when I was the pictures is that at some point in time, when the keel was up, the cable let loose and the keel came down fast and hard and cracked the haul. One option is the do the Wing keel conversioin. Cheers.

Edited by - on

sailing irishman
Deckhand

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USA
10 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2007 : 20:57:41

Hello, I have not had a lot of experience working fiberglass on boats, but fiberglass is fiberglass. If you do decide to repair this yourself, you got some good advice, but I would like to add one thing. When I worked on Corvettes, I found that when there was a crack and we ground down the surface, we were more successful when we ground a slight grove down the crack creating a gully so that when we replaced the fiberglass matting we strengthened the remaining fibers. Hope you have good luck, I too am repairing and not sailing, that kills me!!!

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2007 : 21:44:28

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by C25Guy
 Ok guys, thanks for the patience. I think I've got it. Contrary to the experience of some others, the crack leads forward from the keel trunk, with only an inch or so going up into the trunk.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
That's where I would expect the damage from a fallen keel. The impact will be at the bottom of the forward end of the trunk, and the the hull at that point most likely takes the brunt of the impact. BTW, is that another parallel crack (smaller) going forward from the other side of the trunk?

I'm also thinking that there's something that could cause similar damage: a grounding where the boat is then pushed backward--possibly by wave action--with the keel dug in; or possibly a hard grounding when you're backing up. Has anything like that happened recently? The swing keel pivots up nicely when grounded while moving forward--not so in reverse.

Edited by - on

C25Guy
1st Mate

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USA
37 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2007 : 23:17:51

The keel hasn't taken a fall from the raised position in the time I've owned the boat, and I haven't had any groundings while backing down. I'm certain that the crack wasn't there when I bought the boat, unless it was painted over and the bottom paint was watertight, which seems unlikely. One thing that did happen was I ran over a submerged stump or a large boulder and I felt the keel hit, bounce up, then slam back down. It seems hard to belive it could have pivoted up far enough to do damage when coming down, but anything is possible. That was my worst grounding of all time...

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2007 : 08:16:12

I'm suspicious that was it. (Remember, it's 3/4-ton of iron being stopped by nothing but fiberglass.) Some peole like that their swingers can act like "curb feelers", but from what you say, it was a little more than just "feeling"--you had a partial free-fall. Other events like this have led a number of people to stick fixed wing keels in the trunk.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/08/2007 08:19:10

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2007 : 09:11:51

I wonder if a taught cable would have prevented it. Do you sail with hum?

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C25Guy
1st Mate

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USA
37 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2007 : 09:56:21

I do keep the cable tight so that support for it comes from both the cable and the trunk. Apparently, it hasn't been tight enough!

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2007 : 12:08:10

I don't see how the keel could make it forward if your cable was taught. I would think the lifting eye or winch would have taken damage first. Have you inspected them? I suppose the cable could have cinched up on the winch and let the keel come forward. Ah the mysteries of life.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2007 : 12:44:04

If the cable is just "taut" and the keel is all the way down, in a partial fall (after riding over an object), the keel's momentum is probably going to cause some compression in the coil of cable around the winch, or some give in the winch itself--just enough to let the hull do most of the work stopping the swing. Keep in mind the mass here--we're not talking about a centerboard. The good news is the damage appears light compared to what some have experienced from a full free-fall when the cable lets go.

Any opinions around here on how much a wing conversion is likely to add to the resale value of a swinger? (Just curious.

)

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2007 : 13:06:14

I'd think that it would likely not add anything as far as re-sale given that as-is, the re-sale value is pretty low. It looks like whichever route taken to effect repair will just bring the boat bake to its pre-injury value. I guess that assumes the cost of conversion and the cost of restoration are about equal??????

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2007 : 14:50:45

I would pay a $1000 premium for a wing or a fin over a swing. When I sold my swing I priced it accordingly.

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Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2007 : 16:10:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell "...I guess that assumes the cost of conversion and the cost of restoration are about equal?"<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Not even close, especially if the boat owner does his own work. I repaired a similar amount of damage to the bottom of my C-25 when I first got it. The cost of materials and expendable supplies was maybe $100, certainly less than $200. Even throwing in the price of decent quality "4"-5" right angle grinder, a 7" disk sander, and a 3/8" drill motor" (as mentioned above) would barely raise the cost to $500. The work could almost certainly be done with the boat on its trailer. (Might have to pay to have swing keel removed and reinstalled -- maybe $200-$250.) A wing keel retrofit, assuming it was even possible for the boat owner to install without hiring professional help and renting major lifting equipment, would still cost thousands. (And would sacrifice the performance advantages of a swing keel.

)

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2007 : 23:35:32

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 I would pay a $1000 premium for a wing or a fin over a swing. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I agree (at least). From what I recall, the wing can be bought from Catalina for less than from CD, and can be shipped for relatively little with a new boat that's coming in the right direction. But things may have changed...

Edited by - on

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