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Sail trim and new Genoa

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gop711
1st Mate

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Armenia
83 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/21/2007 : 12:58:19

Hello,

First off I just mailed in my membership to the Catalina Association.

I bought my boat, a 1990 C25 tall rig wing keel,and we have sailed it a lot. We are located in middle Ga. and the wind and the temp have been all over the place. Prior to the C25 we had a C22.

Anyway I have a couple of questions.

First off the flattening reef. Do you use this only when the puffs make you ease the traveler? It doesn't appear to take much of the sail up. Do you tie all the reef tacks in the on the sails? Any suggestions on when or how to use the flattening reef?

If you were to sail with one sail which would it be? The main or the 150 roller furler Genoa? I realize that the correct response might be with the main reef and the Genoa open a little. I was just curious as to what single sail would be best.

Last question. It looks like I am going to need a 150 Genoa (Roller Furler). We mostly cruise but race occasionally. Would you go with the 5 oz or 6oz material? Any other suggestion on the purchasing of the 150 would greatly be appreciated.

Thanks
Greg

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 02/21/2007 : 14:18:36

I'd check with a sail maker to find the material that will specifically help you for your needs. Since you have a furler, I'd consider a 155% Genoa. Especially since 99 out of every 100 PHRF organizations rate based on that sale and 98 out of 100 don't give you credit for smaller sails.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
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Pitcairn Island
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Response Posted - 02/21/2007 : 14:53:15

Greg, I am not certain you are talking about a flattening reef. A flattening reef is a very short reef, about 1' at the clew of the main. It is designed to take the shelf-foot/pocket out of the bottom of the main. Are you talking about the regular sail shortening reef? If so then most sail makers do not recommend tying off the reef tacks (good name never heard it), if your reef comes out unexpectedly the tied lines along the boom will destroy your sail. It seems the consensus among tall riggers is that the first reef does not seem to take much out and they often have 2nd reefs for more serious wind.

One sail? Maybe a tall rig sails better on main alone, the standards would probably pick the headsail... but there are lots of issues here. it is difficult to tack with head sail alone if you are hard on the wind, your bow will blow down, you pretty much have to tack over and intensionally duck on down before you harden up the headsail and do it progressively as you climb back on the wind. Main alone is sure a lot easier and great if you do not need to make time to weather.

A furled 6oz 150 sail on our boats would be one bigga sausage!

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 02/21/2007 14:54:43

gop711
1st Mate

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Armenia
83 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2007 : 15:03:16

Duane.

I will make sure I get the 155..Thanks

Frank,

I am thinking it is a flattening reef, my C22 did not have it. The reefing point is right above the clew and it does have the reef tacks.
Do you have one and do you use it?

I also have a single reefing point, I guessing here, but it is probably 2' up from the clew. I am guessing that your comment on the 6oz material would be too much and you would go with the 5oz, correct?

Thanks for the comments and suggestions.
Greg

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2007 : 16:42:31

Since this is a tall rig, someone may have put a short reef in it for a bimini. I have had flattening reefs on other boats and used them a lot to shape the sail. I have a loose footed main now and the outhaul accomplishes the sail shaping.
The bigger the sail the lighter the cloth, I am weak on reliable data but I think most 155s are 4-4.5 oz, (someone else should weigh in on that!). With a furler you need to decide what percentage of time you will spend in various wind ranges. I sail on a small inland lake and spend most of my time in 15-25 mph winds, I had a 135 made out of heavy cloth so I can stay out and sail up into the lower 30s. As the wind builds I take in my only main sail reef first, next I use the furler to reef the head sail to 110 (I have tell tails at 135%, 110%, and 80%). If I am wanting to play I will reef to 80% next and sail hard in the upper 20s. Last I will furl the rest of the head sail and sail on shortened main alone, I do that because of the ability to dump very high wind from a main.
So, in Ga, do you sail in those conditions? If so you may want to get a sail like mine. If however, you are looking for wind on most days then you can have a large light sail and know it will not spend much time reefed. You get to optimize the design criteria to meet your needs.
One last thing, I have white UV resistant dacron as my UV protection. I think it looks nicer than Sunbrella and it is a lighter weight so it has less affect on the foot and leech.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
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USA
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Response Posted - 02/21/2007 : 16:46:40

There are two possible reasons why your mainsail might have a flattening reef. (1) A flattening reef is used most often in conjunction with a racing shelf foot. The shelf foot is an extraordinarily deep pocket along the foot of the mainsail. It is used in very light air and also when sailing on a reach, to generate more power. When the boatspeed reaches about 2 1/2 or 3 kts, you should start to flatten the foot of the mainsail. At first, you can start to flatten the foot of the sail by increasing the tension on the outhaul. As the windspeed increases, the sailcloth starts to stretch, and the outhaul is no longer able to hold the deep pocket in the mainsail flat enough. That's where the flattening reef comes in. You can tuck in the flattening reef very quickly (in just a few seconds), and it will give the mainsail a very flat foot. Ideally (if you're racing), you should use the outhaul and flattening reef to give the mainsail optimum shape as the windspeed puffs and lulls, deepening the pocket in the lulls and flattening it in the puffs.

(2) The other possible use for a flattening reef is to enable you to raise the boom on a tall rig boat, so that you can install a bimini to provide shade in the cockpit. By raising the boom, you can get more headroom under the bimini.

As for sailing on one sail only, it depends on the wind conditions, and what you want to accomplish. In very strong winds, you can sail on the mainsail alone, and the boat will perform pretty well overall. In moderate or lighter winds, the jib alone will make the boat go faster, because it's the more powerful of your two sails, but it'll be make it difficult to tack at times, for the reasons Frank gave, and the boat won't point to windward very well. In moderate or lighter winds, the mainsail alone will give you much slower speeds, but it'll be much easier to control the boat's direction. With the mainsail, you can point to windward. For example, if you want to sail to a mooring, the best sail to use alone would be your mainsail, because it'll keep your boatspeed down, and you'll have good maneuverability.

While I owned my C25, I bought two 155% jibs, and, to the best of my recollection, I believe they were both about 5 1/2 ounce dacron. One of them might have been 6 ounce. I'd suggest you tell the sailmaker what kind of winds you usually have, and that you want the weight of the cloth that is appropriate for a good, all-purpose 155% sail in those conditions.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 02/21/2007 17:12:17

John Russell
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Response Posted - 02/21/2007 : 17:14:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by gop711
 ..... The reefing point is right above the clew and it does have the reef tacks.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This sounds like a Cunningham that Greg's describing to my novice head and not a reef point? Same thing?

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 02/21/2007 : 17:27:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">This sounds like a Cunningham that Greg's describing to my novice head and not a reef point? Same thing?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> No. A cunningham is about one foot above the tack. A flattening reef is about one foot above the clew.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
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Response Posted - 02/22/2007 : 11:58:38

I use my flattening reef (which pulls only about 6 inches out of the mainsail) occasionaly. If I ordered a new sail I'd certainly get one, along with a first and second reef. When you find yourself heeling to about 35 degrees but its not quite enough wind to go to the first reef, the flattening reef will bring the boat back to about a comfortable 20 degrees. I have double line reefing system with the lines on cunningham hooks. I can easily move these lines between the flattening reef, 1st reef point, and 2nd reef point. My North shelf footed racing main has the flattening reef points, as does my standard Catalina non-racing mainsail.

If I sailed with one sail, I would sail with the main (Standard Rig) but the boat won't point very well with reefed main and no jib.

I'd guess your 155 roller furling jib should be 5 oz. Keep in mind the best overall sail on a Catalina 25 is the 135. If I was buying only one head sail for a roller system setup, I'd get the 135.

I have 60, 110, 135, and 155 hank on sails plus symmetrical spinnaker. My roller furling 135 is home in the garage (I prefer the hank on sails).

Edited by - on

gop711
1st Mate

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Armenia
83 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2007 : 12:41:05

Wow,

We got a lot of knowledge here.

I will look into the 135 with the Dacron UV protection.

Thanks for the explanation on the flattening reef, I will start playing with it.

Frank, we were out sailing Saturday (two weeks ago) with the temp around 38 and winds were gusting to 30. I was sailing with just the Genoa, it was partially unfurled. Had a great sail. Went out on Sunday winds were gusting a little higher and tried the main alone The wind was on our nose. Had trouble pointing. I sail primarily with my wife and I try to keep pushing the envelope and keep her happy.

Again thanks for all you comments. If you are passing through Ga. and want to go sailing just let me know.

Greg

Edited by - on

ct95949
Captain

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Aruba
300 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2007 : 13:40:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimB517
 I have double line reefing system with the lines on cunningham hooks. I can easily move these lines between the flattening reef, 1st reef point, and 2nd reef point. My North shelf footed racing main has the flattening reef points, as does my standard Catalina non-racing mainsail.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I have single line reefing for the first and second reef (each) with small blocks and shackles at the reef points and nothing rigged yet for the flattening reef or cunningham. I wonder how it would work to move the first reef rigging down to the flattening and cunningham cringles and tighten those together for a 1/2 reef? Or do these points need to be tensioned seperatly?
Thanks, Craig

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 02/22/2007 : 15:46:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by gop711
 If you were to sail with one sail which would it be? The main or the 150 roller furler Genoa?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Definitely the headsail...On days when conditions are so so, I'll just unfurl the 135 and leave the main bagged on the boom.

A few years ago on a day when the windspeed and direction were amazingly consistent, I spent some time playing with different sail plans (main & genoa, genoa only, and main only) and found performance under genoa alone to be comparable to main and genoa with only a slight reduction in speed and an almost immeasurable drop in pointing ability (I was eyeballing my compass). Under main alone, my speed dropped 60%, the boat wouldn't point worth a hoot, and I couldn't tack to save my life.

Edited by - dlucier on 02/22/2007 16:04:23

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 02/22/2007 : 15:46:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ct95949:
I wonder how it would work to move the first reef rigging down to the flattening and cunningham cringles and tighten those together for a 1/2 reef? Or do these points need to be tensioned seperatly? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> You could do that, but I'd suggest you leave them as they are.

If you have a line that is for the sole purpose of pulling the flattening reef down to the boom, then you can pull it in as an ordinary flattening reef, or, you can pull both that line and your cunningham down to the boom, and that will give you a short reef. In other words, using it that way will allow you full use of your first and second full reefs, and also give you flexibility in how you set the flattening reef and cunningham.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
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Response Posted - 02/23/2007 : 09:23:07

Don's observation that his boat didn't go to windward very well under mainsail alone sounds inconsistent with my suggestion that you use the mainsail to sail to windward when you want to keep your speed down, but we really aren't being inconsistent. Nevertheless, because we appear to be giving inconsistent advice, we obviously haven't given you the best answer yet.

Remember that when the boat moves through the water, the water moving over the surface of the keel creates lift, and it is that lift which enables the boat to sail to windward. The keel does not create any lift at all if there is no water moving across it's surface. As the boatspeed increases, an increasing amount of lift is produced, and the boat's ability to point to windward is increased. In higher windspeeds, a boat with only a mainsail will achieve higher speed through the water, and will be able to point to windward better than in lower windspeeds.

A C25 is masthead rigged. That means it has a very big jib and a much smaller mainsail. The jib generates most of it's forward driving force. The jib, used by itself, tends to pull the bow of the boat to leeward, because most of it's force is forward of the boat's center of lateral resistance. When you tack with only a jib, the boatspeed slows, the bow comes across the eye of the wind, the wind catches the jib on the opposite tack, and it tends to pull the bow of the boat even further to leeward. The bigger the headsail, the greater it's tendency to pull the bow off to leeward. If you don't get the jib trimmed in quickly enough on the other side, the boatspeed will decline so much that the keel will not generate enough lift to allow the boat to sail to windward. If that happens, the boat will continue to bear off downwind. Therefore, if you're going to sail under jib alone, it'll be much easier to tack, and easier to keep the boat sailing to windward if you use a smaller jib, such as a 110 or 130. It will be much more difficult to sail under jib alone if the jib is a 150. Don's opinion was influenced by his use of a 130. My opinion was influenced by my use of a 155. We didn't explain why the size of the jib matters.

The mainsail generates more sideways (heeling) force. That heeling force, being aft of the boat's center of lateral resistance, tends to push the boat's stern to leeward. When the stern moves to leeward, the bow moves to windward.

As you can see, the heeling force of the mainsail keeps the bow pointed to windward. The forward driving force of the jib generates forward speed.

When the mainsail and jib are used together, they balance out those forces that are trying to rotate the boat in opposite directions.

One would think that, under mainsail alone, the boat will be able to sail extremely close to the wind, but that's not necessarily so. Remember, under mainsail alone, the boat's speed will be much slower than under jib alone, and that slower speed will detract from the boat's ability to point to windward. In light air, the boat's speed under mainsail alone might be so slow that it will hardly be able to sail to windward at all.

This is why both the jib and mainsail should ideally be used, if you want the best performance and control out of the boat. Whenever you use one sail alone, the boat's ability to point to windward will decrease, regardless of which sail you are using. But all of us only raise one sail or the other occasionally, when we don't care about maximum performance, and we just want to mess around, or when we want to keep control at slower speed.

In light air, you'll need all the sail area you have, so you probably won't be sailing on one sail at all.

Generally, the stronger the wind, the better the mainsail alone will work, because in stronger winds, the boat will be able to achieve enough speed through the water to point, tack and maneuver well.

Generally, the stronger the wind, the less sail area you'll want under jib alone, because you can achieve good boatspeed with less sail area, and you can get a smaller jib sheeted in more quickly with less likelihood of it snagging on the rigging during the tack. Also, under jib alone, you should concentrate on making your tacks as smoothly and efficiently as possible.

When sailing under one sail only, your choice of sails depends on the wind conditions and what you are trying to accomplish.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 02/23/2007 09:41:16

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 02/23/2007 : 11:08:07

Steve,

As usual, your explanations are spot on and quite educational...Thanks.

I do have a thought on this part...

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 Generally, the stronger the wind, the better the mainsail alone will work, because in stronger winds, the boat will be able to achieve enough speed through the water to point, tack and maneuver well.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

On the day I did my little sail plan experiment, the winds were somewhat brisk with my boat easily reaching 6.5 knots under full main and genoa. With the wind blowing pretty good, under main alone and with me trying to go to windward, boatspeed was still less than two knots. When tacking at this speed, boatspeed dropped to nothing as I approached the wind and then the wind blew the bow back to leeward on my original course.

I'm thinking that if the wind wasn't as strong, that maybe I could've completed the tack before my bow was pushed back down onto the original course.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 02/23/2007 : 12:12:47

I too found that our C-25 was a pig under main alone compared to the 130 alone, in almost any conditions. Another factor regarding pointing is that under main alone you can often get the boat to look like it's pointing (the compass heading) when it's really side-slipping more (leeway--as shown by the GPS heading) because of the lack of speed. That relates to what Steve explained about the keel. Your compass heading is not necessarily a good indication of how well you're really pointing. Nor is the windex, since higher speed (under genny alone) moves the apparent wind, as indicated by the windex, forward while lower speed (main alone) moves it back. Your GPS is the only really good indicator of how high you're really sailing--meaning what direction the boat is actually moving as opposed to where the bow or the windex is pointed.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/23/2007 12:17:04

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 02/23/2007 : 12:21:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier:

I'm thinking that if the wind wasn't as strong, that maybe I could've completed the tack before my bow was pushed back down onto the original course.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">When you start to tack, the sails begin to luff, and they stop driving the boat. When you're only doing 2 knots, the boat won't coast very far before it loses momentum and comes to a stop. Therefore, you have to steer the boat much more aggressively when the boat is only going 2 kts, putting the helm over more abruptly, so that the bow crosses the eye of the wind before the boat loses momentum.

You still have to steer it smoothly, or that in itself will kill the boat's speed, but you can't steer it through the more rounded, coordinated kind of turn that you'd do if the boat was doing 6 kts.

There's a point where you don't have enough boat speed to carry it through a tack, and I don't know exactly what that minimum maneuvering speed is, but I've tacked many times at much lower speeds than 2 knots. The wave action has something to do with it. If there's a lot of boat wake or other chop, it can kill your momentum.

I've had the boat out in winds close to 30 kts. under main alone, and it was doing about the same speed as other boats that were flying main and jib, pointing almost as high, and I had no problem at all tacking. It was heeling much less than them. All things considered, it was a pretty nice ride in those conditions.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 02/23/2007 12:28:38

dlucier
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Response Posted - 02/23/2007 : 13:05:58

Steve,

All I know is, with only my genoa up, I can sail circles around those under main alone...

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 02/24/2007 : 13:37:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 ...Therefore, you have to steer the boat much more aggressively when the boat is only going 2 kts, putting the helm over more abruptly, so that the bow crosses the eye of the wind before the boat loses momentum.

You still have to steer it smoothly, or that in itself will kill the boat's speed, but you can't steer it through the more rounded, coordinated kind of turn that you'd do if the boat was doing 6 kts.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Just don't make the common mistake of pushing the tiller hard-over. Pushing it past about 45 degrees turns the rudder into a brake, slowing the boat but not turning it much. (It's called "stalling the rudder.") This is an even more common mistake when backing up, since the rudder wants to push itself hard-over--I often see it get people into trouble maneuvering into or out of slips. Most wheel systems won't push the rudder that far... With a tiller, keep it inside of 45 degrees.

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Response Posted - 02/25/2007 : 07:55:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 Just don't make the common mistake of pushing the tiller hard-over. Pushing it past about 45 degrees turns the rudder into a brake, slowing the boat but not turning it much...I often see it get people into trouble maneuvering into or out of slips. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Dave,

Turning the tiller past 45 degrees keeps me out of trouble around the docks. When I'm pivoting into my slip, my tiller is closer to ninety degrees. I think a more accurate statement might be, don't go past 45 degrees in relation to the direction of the stern.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 02/25/2007 : 12:01:21

OK, I'll ammend that... If you are essentially standing still and using the outboard to pivot the boat, the rudder should be hard over in the direction you want the stern to move. What I was talking about is maintining momentum while steering through the wind, and/or turning the boat while it's moving around a dock or anywhere else. Under way, a hard-over rudder will stall and not do what the helmsman intends (unless he intends to use it as a brake).

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/25/2007 12:04:04

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 02/25/2007 : 12:27:27

In one situation, putting your helm over hard might be the worst thing you could do, but in another situation, it might be exactly the right way to accomplish your objective.

Sailing is all about making the right choices that will best accomplish your purpose, under the existing conditions of the wind and sea. There are times when you might actually want to kill your boatspeed by putting the helm over hard. For example, if you're approaching your slip too fast, and you want to slow it down, you can rub off a lot of speed if you put the helm over hard one way, and then put it over hard the other way.

Sailboats don't come with brakes, but you can use your rudder as a brake by putting it over hard, or by steering the boat into the wind, so that the sails start to luff. You can use your sails as brakes by easing the sheets, and letting them luff. Any of those techniques can be either beneficial or detrimental, depending on what you're trying to accomplish.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 02/25/2007 : 12:42:04

Steve: As you no doubt know, you can also slow and even back up a sailboat under sail by pushing the boom over to windward--a trick I learned as a kid to back up a sunfish or a catamaran to get out of irons. I mention the "rudder stalling" thing because it's a common error made by new sailors, generally thinking that it's the way to steer, as you said, "aggressively". And it can cause one to end up "in irons"--unable to get through the wind on a tack. Your point on slowing the boat when coming into a dock "too hot" supports that precisely.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/25/2007 18:28:54

Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 02/25/2007 : 17:34:29

In my experience, on main alone the C25 TR is a turkey - very difficult to tack. On jib alone, speed is faster, pointing is less (with a 155%) and in very high winds (20K +) with only a 100% tacks tend to be through about 160 degrees!

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 02/26/2007 : 09:53:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 In my experience, on main alone the C25 TR is a turkey - very difficult to tack. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Nevertheless, the overwhelming majority of serious racers sail under mainsail alone prior to and during the starting sequence leading up to a race, especially if there is a decent breeze blowing. Why? Because they have an objective that is more important to them than getting the best possible performance out of their boat. While waiting for a race to start, most serious racers sail around on their mainsail alone until they have to raise the jib for the start of the race, because tacking wears out their expensive racing jibs. Unless the wind is light, they can beat, reach and run on the mainsail alone, and they can tack or jibe. While they're sailing in the queue before the start of a race, it isn't important that the boat have maximum speed or maximum pointing ability. The only thing that matters is that they save their jib for use during the race, and that they be able to maneuver the boat well enough to get it in position to make it's final approach to the starting line. In short, under mainsail alone, they can perform any maneuver necessary in preparation for the start of the race.

Greg's original question was, if you had to choose between sailing on the jib alone and the mainsail alone, "...what single sail would be best?" I think the correct answer to that question is that there is no best choice in all circumstances. It depends on what you are trying to accomplish. There are some things that the mainsail does better, and some things that the jib does better. Also, it depends on the conditions. The mainsail generally works better in some respects in stronger winds, and the jib generally works better in some respects in lighter winds. Also, it depends on the size of the jib. A bigger jib is more difficult to handle, and is generally harder to tack. Also, boats are designed to sail with a balanced sailplan, and, when you sail on mainsail or jib alone, you might have to change your helmsmanship and other boat handling techniques to make it work.

As you can see, some of us have differing opinions about how boats handle under one sail or the other. My suggestion is that, when you go out to sail in different wind conditions, try sailing for awhile under one sail or the other, and experience for yourself how the boat handles. You'll quickly develop your own body of experience to draw upon, and you'll be able to make those choices for yourself.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 02/26/2007 : 14:31:58

Actually, Steve, his question was hypothetical, and asked for our preferences. That's what we gave him. You're saying we shouldn't have?

Edited by - on

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