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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Radius the mast base?

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Ed Cassidy
Captain

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USA
365 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/28/2007 : 19:14:10

I’m fairly sure I saw something here about radiusing the base of the mast to make it possible to raise it without undoing the upper shrouds. From what I see, the hole through the mast for the bolt is only about 1 ½ inches up from the base of the mast and if I radius the mast based upon that hole, the radius won’t even reach the rear edge of the mast. Should I drill a hole higher on the mast so that it is equally distant from the bottom and the trailing edge of the mast? Any concerns about the resulting strength of the mast? Thanks,
Ed

Ed
HisHorse
1979 SR/SK #1393
Green Cove Springs, FL

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2007 : 20:40:32

Hi Ed,
I had a radiused mast on my Merit 25, it also had swept back spreaders with no forwards. I still loosened the shrouds.
The inline uppers and dual lowers really does not lend itself to that idea. Maybe if you are going under bridges or something exceptional like that but other than special circumstances I would invest in a good tension gauge, develop some technique and simply use the rig the way it was designed. I am not even comfortable with the lever release devices but that is just me.

Edited by - on

sweetcraft
Admiral

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USA
816 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2007 : 00:56:30

I have seen quite a few bent fittings on boats that the raising of the mast did not include the loosening of the upper shrouds. The pressure on the shroud starts before the fitting can handle the angle. Yes, I use the lever release fittings because SS galls and we were wrecking the turn buckles adjusting the tension. The mast step is higher than where the shroud is attached and this makes the problem. The spreaders take a lot of pressure from the raising without loosening the uppers and wonder if anyone has ever had a failure of spreaders?

Edited by - on

Ed Cassidy
Captain

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USA
365 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2007 : 07:58:34

I guess I didn't do a good job of wording my question. I am mostly thinking about how much eaiser it would be to raise the mast with a rounded base as compared to the square base. The geometry of the mast going an extra 2 inches or so in the air because of the squared off base might make all the difference. While looking for a boat, I found a number of other brands that had the base rounded and even found a c25 and a c22 that were done the same way. That said, being a novice, I fully intend to follow the advice of experts (except about teak!).

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2007 : 10:48:04

Ed I think we are responding to your question, you want to have a way to raise and lower the mast with tension on the upper shrouds and we are recommending that you NOT attempt to leave your shrouds under tension.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2007 : 19:50:56

I won't dispute Franks's advice, but I will point out that because the mast is hinged at a higher point than the upper shrouds (so the shrouds are longer than the mast), the shrounds will gradually loosen as the mast is tipped. However, without the radius, there'll be a small angle where they won't be loose enough.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 03/29/2007 19:54:03

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2007 : 22:39:31

>"I use the lever release fittings because SS galls and we were wrecking the turn buckles "

Advice to anyone who has stainless turnbuckle bodies. Worst idea ever. Throw them away! They will gall.
When they do, they will destroy the swaged end on the shroud which will ruin your whole day...
or your vacation cruise. (don't ask how I know this)

Get chrome-plated bronze 'open' turnbuckle bodies. You'll never have to worry about galling... or regret changing them out.
Trust me on this one.

Edited by - on

esailor
Navigator

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USA
118 Posts

Response Posted - 03/30/2007 : 10:25:13

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Get chrome-plated bronze 'open' turnbuckle bodies<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
OK now you guys are freaking me out and I have visions of bent stays and masts coming down. Can somebody please post a picture of what you are talking about?

Thanks,

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/30/2007 : 10:49:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by esailor
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Get chrome-plated bronze 'open' turnbuckle bodies<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
OK now you guys are freaking me out and I have visions of bent stays and masts coming down. Can somebody please post a picture of what you are talking about?

Thanks,
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
He means to use this:

Not the stainless steel closed tubular type, or the stainless lever-release type. Catalina Direct includes only chromed bronze open-body turnbuckles in their standing rigging kits.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 03/30/2007 10:51:10

Jack Heaston
1st Mate

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48 Posts

Response Posted - 03/30/2007 : 11:16:09

Hi Ed

Here's another view on loosening the uppers while raising the mast. Although I am not saying one shouldn't, I never have in the 15-20 times I've done it. Using the A-frame method, I have never noticed any undue strain on the uppers nor the spreaders.

I replaced most of the T-bolts (bent from POs raising the mast?) and changed out the closed body turnbuckles with the chrome-plated brass ones from CD. To keep the toggle, T-bolt and turnbuckle in a vertical alignment during raising the mast, I use a 14-16" bungee and wrap its middle a couple times around the lifeline between the upper and aft lower chainplates. Then the bungee hooks are set in the openings of both turnbuckles with enough tension to keep them pointed up. I suppose those with the OEM closed style could fashion a temporary loop with seizing wire through the little hole in the middle?

I raise and lower the mast in the slip solo, and although I always check the position of the T-bolts as the shrouds begin to tighten and the mast comes into column, I have yet to find them out of vertical.

This is not an attempt to counter the advice of those more experienced than myself, which is probably everyone contributing to this Forum, but it works for me. I am reluctant to mess around with the shroud adjustment, unless I'm tuning the rig. I always lube every turnbuckle before making any adjustments, keep a tap & die set aboard to clean up any balky threads, and have spares aboard, but even then it makes me nervous.

I also trailer the boat with the bungees in place to keep the toggles and turnbuckles from banging around on the deck.

Hope this is helpful, and if some of the old-times think it's insane to raise the mast without loosening the uppers, I hope they will take the time to rip me a new one - I always appreciate their advice. In any event, keeping the T-bolts aligned vertically while the stick is going up should prevent the bending problem.

Best regards,
Jack
83 SR/FK Oak Bay #3944

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 03/30/2007 : 18:32:57

"Here's another view on loosening the uppers "

Different approaches work equally well if done properly. I've gone 100% the other direction. I disconnect ALL un-necessary stays and raise the mast with only the aft lowers attached. Once I get the forestay connected then I'll hook up the other stays. [Before lowering the mast a 'swipe' on the threads with a marking pen or a wrap of tape will help get the rig back to where it started].

Why do I do this? Despite my best efforts, when the mast is on the way up there's always something to hang up, twist, step on, step in, wrap around my neck, bind, get cocked, or, I guess reduced to a single term, screw up. The more possibilities I remove for entanglement, the better things work. Note that this may be a strictly personal thing as asking me to neatly wrap a present will result in chaos.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 03/30/2007 : 18:39:55

I am considering radiusing the mast - although I may not get to it until next year. Having the aft or forward quarter radiused not only makes raising the mast easier, it also reduces stress and damage to the mast base and pin holes. If you choose to do it, you should have a heel plate welded over the radiused section. Stay and spreader tension is an issue not addressed by radiusing the mast.

I raise the mast from stern forward with the uppers loose, it really isn't a big deal. It take maybe 5 minutes to loosen and tighten, but for 5 minutes and wear and tear I will eventually go for release levers.
Dave

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/30/2007 : 19:18:25

Or you can used a hinged mast step...

Hinged Mast Plate Assembly: K-1374:
Heavy SS double channel hinge assembly. Lower channel plate bolts to deck w/ (4) 5/16" bolts. Upper channel plate is attached to mast step with (2) 5/16" bolts and special compression spacer nuts (included). Top plate hinges forward or aft on (2) 3/8" pins, and features six (6) predrilled holes to simplify mast step mounting. Base is 6 1/2" long x 4" wide, unit is 1" high. $69

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 03/30/2007 : 21:57:34

I noticed that you are in Dayton - I am in Waynesville. Send me an email. I just joined the Catalina fold last year, but I have been sailing more years than I like to count.
Dave

Edited by - on

crcalhoon
Captain

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USA
303 Posts

Response Posted - 03/31/2007 : 11:49:32

Hey, Clambeach--I have the original issue stainless "pop bottle" turnbuckles on my 1979 SR FK. Have considered changing to open body bronze, as you suggest. A couple of questions. Did you have to change the whole rig? If not, I have to assume that you were able to find bodies which matched the existing threads and studs. If so, where did you get them, and what exact sizes did you use, if you remember. I have only had this type of turnbuckle on one other boat, and though I have never had any problems with them--knock on wood,--I just don't really like or trust them. Any info would be appreciated.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/31/2007 : 11:55:01

[url="http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=264"]

[/url]

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 03/31/2007 : 15:43:16

"If so, where did you get them, and what exact sizes did you use, if you remember"

Let's see... it's been awhile. I think I purchased most of mine from Catalina Direct... and that at the time, their pricing on turnbuckles was competitive with other online vendors... [Defender, WestMarine, Sailnet (the old Sailnet)]. My C25 'bible' is sitting on the boat so I can't check their catalog right now... they don't list everything they have online.

IMHO: I'd go ahead and get the 'body and toggle' [5/16"] Nice to renew that lower hardware ... or I guess you can just go for the body alone.

Here's a few links.

http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|118|107602|297402&id=144913
http://www.hallspars.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=j24_t

As I alluded to in an earlier post, I had one of the stainless 'closed' style turnbuckles gall and sieze at a rather inopportune time. If this happens on the toggle end, it's not too bad, provided you have an extra toggle. If the galling happens on the shroud end, you're really hosed unless you have a spare shroud (I didn't) and at a minimum, you're into dropping the mast to replace it.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2007 : 00:19:37

Click on the photo...

[url="http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=264"]

[/url]

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