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Swing keel stored up or down?

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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/30/2007 : 07:01:37

For boats kept in a fresh-water lake, doesn't it make good sense to leave the keel in the down position to avoid the sudden drop and sinking boat issue? We've always done that with our C-22 and, after 30 years of mixed in-water and trailer-sailing, have had no cable problems at all.
Cheers,javascript:insertsmilie('

')
Big Smile

David

DavidP
1975 C-22 SK #5459 "Shadowfax" Fleet 52
PO of 1984 C-25 SK/TR #4142 "Recess"
Percy Priest Yacht Club, Hamilton Creek Marina, Nashville, TN

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 03/30/2007 : 07:31:57

I keep mine down all the time once it is in the water. You'll find differing opinions of those in salt water.

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Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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1893 Posts

Response Posted - 03/30/2007 : 08:00:17

I've kept a swing keel C-25 in tropical salt water for over 10 years. I leave the keel as far down as practical. The water at the dock is too shallow to leave the keel all the way down. I lower it until it touches bottom, then raise it few turns to prevent wave action from from bumping it on the bottom. (There's probably a keel shaped depression in the sand down there by now.

) I prefer to avoid subjecting the keel system (or pretty much anything else) to cyclical shock loads. Speaking of which, A boat on a mooring with a loose swing keel pivot going clunk-clunk with each passing wave can't be good either. Once the keel is all the way down, the pressure against the keel stop should cut way down on the tendancy to move around and clunk. My boat's keel pivot's clearances are so tight, there's no perceivable clunk as the boat rocks.

-- Leon S.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/30/2007 : 08:16:25

Didn't some people have a problem with the cockpit draining when the keel was left down with nobody in the cockpit? I recall complaints that water collected toward the bulkhead, and that raising the keel moved enough weight aft to allow it to drain. (Not that I'd want to leave it that way...)

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 03/30/2007 : 08:59:02

"Didn't some people have a problem with the cockpit draining when the keel was left down"

Correct. The early C25 swing keel [aka Mark I] sits level on her marks with the keel up. With the keel down and an empty cockpit she will sit bow-down and water will not completely drain from the cockpit and the side decks.

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indiejoe
Deckhand

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USA
23 Posts

Response Posted - 03/30/2007 : 09:03:52

I'm on a fresh water lake (Lake Guntersville) and I keep mine up. The water at my old marina was too shallow to leave it down, but in my new marina I've got around 10' at my slip. I've been told it's better to keep it up in the slip to minimize wear on the keel pin hardware, the theory being that as the boat bobs in the water, the keel will "swing" (however slightly) in a side-to-side motion, placing increased stress on the pin and bushing. So I keep it up in the slip. Of course, I'm no expert by any stretch and may be completely misinformed.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/30/2007 : 10:58:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by indiejoe
 I've been told it's better to keep it up in the slip to minimize wear on the keel pin hardware, the theory being that as the boat bobs in the water, the keel will "swing" (however slightly) in a side-to-side motion, placing increased stress on the pin and bushing. So I keep it up in the slip.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
It's an old debate here... The counter theory is that if you leave it down, you're less likely to find only your mast sticking out of the water in your slip some day. You can "Search" for the many threads on that issue.

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ct95949
Captain

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Aruba
300 Posts

Response Posted - 03/30/2007 : 11:17:22

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ClamBeach
 "Didn't some people have a problem with the cockpit draining when the keel was left down"

Correct. The early C25 swing keel [aka Mark I] sits level on her marks with the keel up. With the keel down and an empty cockpit she will sit bow-down and water will not completely drain from the cockpit and the side decks.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
After reading almost every swing keel thread for the last 5 years I thought I would never see anything new but this is. One of the bigger projects on my list is building up the cockpit floor below the companionway because it is a little spongy and it won't drain.
I've also noticed water standing along the toe rail after a wash and other than adding wieght to the stern before I leave the boat I have no idea how to correct this.
After motering over an unknown (to me

) marina cable the keel slammed the trunk from I would guess to be about 1/3 raised causing small cracks in the dinette seat. Needless to say I'm one of those who never raises the keel except for a shallow slip or running aground.

Edited by - ct95949 on 03/31/2007 11:39:23

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 04/10/2007 : 08:32:04

I pick it up every evening. The PO installed some rubber pads (about 4" x 20" x 3/8") into the hull at the opening of the keel slot. I winch the keel up into the slot and snug against the pads and it really stays in place, no knocking around.

Better news is that we commission this week

! YEA!!!

Edited by - jerlim on 04/10/2007 08:33:04

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/10/2007 : 09:32:44

) marina cable the keel slammed the trunk from I would guess to be about 1/3 raised causing small cracks in the dinette seat...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
No cracks around the front of the keel trunk? (The dinette cracks won't sink you--the others just might.)

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ct95949
Captain

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Aruba
300 Posts

Response Posted - 04/10/2007 : 10:13:38

Dave-
Are you saying the impact of the keel dropping would occur only at the front, not the back of the trunk? For some reason I always thought the keel stopped on the aft face. And isn't the entire trunk submerged? I havn't seen any cracks forward but that side is not as exposed.

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jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/10/2007 : 13:21:57

The keel swings down from aft to forward.

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Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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1893 Posts

Response Posted - 04/10/2007 : 17:29:15

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ct95949
 Are you saying the impact of the keel dropping would occur only at the front, not the back of the trunk? For some reason I always thought the keel stopped on the aft face. And isn't the entire trunk submerged?...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I took a close look at this on my 1979 C-25 swing keel dinette.

When the swing keel is fully down, it comes to rest against the aft vertical face inside the head of the keel trunk, which is pretty much right up against the dinette foot well. (At the back of your left calf if you were sitting in the dinette facing aft, with your legs close to the isle.)

Depending upon how an individual C-25 is equipped and loaded, the top surface of the seat platforms is probably just barely above the waterline, but within an inch or so of it. In other words, a crack anywhere in the keel trunk is almost certain to let water in.

I think when a decending swing keel reaches the stop, the forces it exerts on the hull (in foot/pounds) are exactly equal and opposite at the stop and at the pivot. However, the pivot support area of the hull is incredably thick compared to the rest of the keel trunk.

-- Leon S.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/10/2007 : 21:47:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Leon Sisson
 I think when a decending swing keel reaches the stop, the forces it exerts on the hull (in foot/pounds) are exactly equal and opposite at the stop and at the pivot. However, the pivot support area of the hull is incredably thick compared to the rest of the keel trunk.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I would agree, and might add that the primary reinforcement of that part of the keel trunk is probably the hull just forward of it. Pictures I've seen of free-fall damage have included cracks in the hull radiating from the front of the trunk. Leon's point suggests that if there are cracks in the dinette caused by a large force at the pivot, there could also be cracks in the hull (including the front of the trunk).

Free-falls are not caused only by broken cables--they can be caused by running over an object (rock, tree, wreck, etc.) that momentarily lifts the keel and then lets it go (although the latter will likely be a shorter, less traumatic fall).

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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2007 : 19:55:40

Since I started this current thread by bringing up an old subject, I have a question about Dave Bristle's reply regarding the cockpit not draining completely if the keel is left down, actually more about the boot stripe placement. With the keel in the down position, it seems that the bow floats below the waterline or "boot" stripe. Besides the bow berth cushions, two folded head sails and an anchor w/chain and rode, there's nothing in the bow area, yet the bow rides deeper than the stripe. Is this a function of keeping the keek down? I'll admit I haven't tried raising it up yet.
David

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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/15/2007 : 19:57:07

I do know how to spell keel, apparently my two typing fingers don't!!
David

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Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2007 : 20:36:41

Regarding C-25 fore/aft trim while docked. Smaller boats in particular are designed to float on their lines with crew aboard, generally in the cockpit (and swing keel down). So raising the swing keel tends to offset the crew stepping ashore. I'm still leaving mine down.

-- Leon S.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2007 : 20:46:28

David: Regarding your wayward fingers, you can edit your own posts after the fact by clicking the little yellow-pencil icon in the header for the post (only available on your own posts). I have to do it all the time.

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Jay Schkloven
1st Mate

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USA
84 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2007 : 10:27:36

The keel up or down position has always been an ongoing issue. It is a sure thing that if the keel is down in a shallow slip the keel will be in the mud and the rocking is not good.
On the subject of the bow being down. I sail with a friend who is 6'5' and when he goes to the bow to help dock the boat the motor will come up an inch or two. This pulls it out of the water.
I have corrected the problem with 8 gallons of water placed back in the starboard side berth. This extra 60 pounds low in the hull keeps the motor in the water. After docking I move the water to the floor just below the sink. This keeps the motor out of the water when at the slip by tilting the boat to port. I actually keep the water there went I sail. This also keeps the bow up at the dock and the cockpit will drain.

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ct95949
Captain

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Aruba
300 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2007 : 18:14:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Jay Schkloven
 The keel up or down position has always been an ongoing issue. It is a sure thing that if the keel is down in a shallow slip the keel will be in the mud and the rocking is not good.
On the subject of the bow being down. I sail with a friend who is 6'5' and when he goes to the bow to help dock the boat the motor will come up an inch or two. This pulls it out of the water.
I have corrected the problem with 8 gallons of water placed back in the starboard side berth. This extra 60 pounds low in the hull keeps the motor in the water. After docking I move the water to the floor just below the sink. This keeps the motor out of the water when at the slip by tilting the boat to port. I actually keep the water there went I sail. This also keeps the bow up at the dock and the cockpit will drain.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
OK Jay, let me see if I'm understanding you correctly. Your moter or prop is only one or two inches below water and you or your big friend ( I'm guessing the big friend

) moves a 60+ lb. container of water from the back of quarterberth to the floor of the galley whenever you dock? I could see that a 5 gal. bucket full of water at the aft end of the cockpit might help the boat to drain while you're away but the rest seems like just a lot of work. Doesn't your moter mount in the up position lift the moter clear of the water?

Edited by - ct95949 on 04/29/2007 21:01:18

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