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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

still rounding out with 3rd gen rudder

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Tupelo Honey
1st Mate

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USA
45 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/08/2002 : 11:57:31

yes (admittedly, without reefing), in 15 knots wind, in a close reach, my 250wb still rounds out from time to time. is this to be expected? has anyone else experienced this? though it certainly is an improvement, am i correct in assuming that the 3rd gen is not a cure-all?

looking forward to your input.

david

Catalina 250WB
Long Island Sound
"Tupelo Honey"
<BR><img src="http://www.stardive.org/tupelo.jpg"<img src

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cathluk
Admiral

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USA
513 Posts

Response Posted - 07/08/2002 : 15:06:20

At 15 knots on my wing keel I would definitely have a reef in the main already. I haven't had as much trouble with rounding up with the new rudder, but I have had times, especially in gusts, when I have had to let the main out in order not to round up. Even with the new rudder the C250 gets overpowered quite easily & requires reefing to keep an appropriate sail plan for the conditions. I'm not familiar with the water ballast handling so I'm not sure about the differences.

Cathy
"Blown Away"
'97 C250WK #253

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 07/08/2002 : 18:26:33

David, The rounding up is a result of boat balance... not rudder balance. You may now be questioning all the chatter about rudder and how it affects the rounding up at this point.

What the balanced rudder gives ...is a high lift rudder that avoids the torque issues associated with an unbalanced rudder. The high lift was part of the 2nd generation rudder as well. This high lift is needed to control the rounding up tendencies of the c250. So, the 3rd generation doesn't do any more to control the boat probably...than the 2nd...it just avoids the torque issues a lot better and of course that is a big plus and in a way... it seems to allow better handling by taking the effort away.

The issue at hand is really boat balance. Read the sections in the Annapolis Book of Seamanship (first choice) , Chapmans or some text that discusses this.

A high lift rudder is like applying the brakes to a car when the gas pedal is stuck or the idle is set way to high. Although heavy application of the brakes will stop the car... it would be better if the motor would idle down... allowing less brake force needed. This is what's needed with the c250... except think of the high idle equal to the boat being out of balance.

After the reading....should come a discovery of the relationships of center of effort and center of lateral resistance. The primer should give you a good perspective of what to do to keep them in balance.

On the c250 its going to mean that the powerful main... has to be reefed. While a lot of sailboats will simply heel over and in doing dump excess power... the c250 because of its hull design... goes out of balance. This has to do with the 1 -3 width to length ratio as well as the squareness of the bilges giving the hull a rather wide flat bottom.

While its helpful to learn all the esoteric things that affect boat balance...the two areas that will help the most are reducing sail... and in the case of our boats (center board) rakeing the center board aft. Reefing the main has the effect of moving the CE forward... and raking the center board aft... moving the CLR aft.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 07/08/2002 : 20:52:19

With all due respect to my C-250 friends, I'm sure glad that I sail a C25...<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
Derek on "This Side Up" C25 TRFK #2262

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acierno
1st Mate

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USA
62 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2002 : 08:05:40

are you sailing with full main and no jib in these winds? if that is the case, a better balancing strategy might be to reef the main earlier than you normally would and unfurl half the headsail. you will probably find that you will heel just as much and as often, but the boat won't round up as much. the heels will also feel more controllable

ron
'mia alessandra'
250wk, hull 463

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Tupelo Honey
1st Mate

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USA
45 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2002 : 10:24:55

derek.

while the 250 may have issues, mostly from performance upgrades--at least on this thread--there is no comparison with the 25. at least the 250 can get out of its own way. oh, with all due respect!

<img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>

d

Catalina 250WB
Long Island Sound
"Tupelo Honey"
<BR><img src="http://www.stardive.org/tupelo.jpg"<img src

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2002 : 10:56:07

David - thank you for the laugh! I've noticed that on our lake that the C250 can't move fast enough to get out of my way...<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> I realize that they are 2 vastly dissimilar boats, despite their similarity in name - and I definitely prefer the more stable one. However, as the French put it "chacun a son gout"!
Derek

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ssteakley
Captain

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USA
467 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2002 : 15:41:06

Guys, do not worry....Be Happy!, I am the 250 owner that Derek is referring to. With the recent addition of a 250WB we now have 3 250's at the Marina. For myself, I am into this for 1 year so far. I have begun racing and look for every opportunity to learn. Moon Chaser has won 2 single races and 1 regatta (all three races). Derek Crawford was on board during the "Novice Regatta" and directed the helmsman (me) and the crew. So I know the 250 performs just fine. When I get a couple of more years experience under the belt then "This Side Up" captained by Derek Crawford will be back at the marine stores looking for upgrades in sails and hardware, maybe one of those giant fans they sale at Home Depot. Watch out Derek.........the 250's are coming up, overlapping to you windward.
Steve Steakley

Edited by - ssteakley on 07/09/2002 15:42:23

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2002 : 16:29:41

Steve - wasn't it Perry Como who sang "dream along with me"...<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
(If you try overtaking to windward you will be firmly luffed up...)
Seriously tho', I look forward to duking it out with the C250's. I just wish we had a few other C25's racing.
Derek - who has never lost a race in his career! - however, there have been a few occasions when the race course was too short!<img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>

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andy
Navigator

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USA
228 Posts

Response Posted - 07/11/2002 : 20:30:19

David- I've been club racing my 250WB for three years now and I can tell you there is a learning curve on how to make the boat go fast. We still don't have it figured out, and probably never will, but we're a lot more compeitive than we used to be. The main thing I've learned is the boat doesn't like to be overpowered. It'll go a lot faster with a reefed main, a few feet in on the furler, and be a lot more stable in heavy air than if you leave all the canvas up. By heavy air I mean 18kt+. I'm sure it's due to the hull shape. I think a reef might be in order in steady 15Kt winds if the boat is hunkered down and you hit a puff. Sail trim seems to be more sensitive (and important) on this boat too.. but that may be my imagination. The other thing that helps alot is to really pay attention to oncoming gusts and sheet out the main before they hit. you'll keep your momentum and keep the boat under control, trim it back when the gust passes and away ya go!

Andy Anderson
CSCO Kid C250WB #163
MHYC, McCall Idaho0

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Rick Evans
1st Mate

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USA
38 Posts

Response Posted - 07/11/2002 : 22:21:00

15 knots is on the upper end for the 250 without reefing but I am still somewhat surprised by your comment that you are rounding up. With gusts over 15 kts you would round up w/o at least one mainsail reef but a steady breeze of 15 kts and lower should be okay. You may want to look at your rig. A friend of mine actually raked his mast forward a tad and it reduced his weather helm. Have you given that any thought?

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Tray
Navigator

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Namibia
224 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2002 : 14:15:20

David,

I have a WB and I always reef before leaving the dock if the winds are expected to be greater than 10kts. My experience has been that the sea breeze is always at least 12-15kts. I also keep my mast raked slightly forward. I only round up slightly during a strong puff.

Tray
C-250WB #554
"Weeny Bean"

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The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.