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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/17/2007 : 15:37:23

I don't see highly disorganized, confused seas on Western Lake Erie, but rather, as Dave mentioned, regular, wind-driven waves that march on like soldiers in formation one after another like clockwork. Yeah, the occasional boat wake might come from a different direction, but after the momentary wake passes, its back to highly regular waves.

As to reflection, if it's happening on the lake, it's at a scale that is barely detectable, to me anyway. I don't think reflection plays that big a part on Lake Erie due to the shallowness the nearer one gets to shore. For example, say you had 4-5' waves out in the deeper water (20-30ft). As these waves get closer to shore, they start dimishing as the depth decreases. These 4 footers turn into 2-3 footers when you get to 10-15' depths and then turn to nothing within a 1/8 mile or so from shore which could have a depth of only a couple of feet.

Where reflection really becomes an issue is in the Detroit River, especially where it narrows between Windsor and Detroit. There, boat induced waves bounce back and forth until you really can't tell the direction of the wave. These are probably what Dave called standing waves. These waves are able to reflect because the river is very deep at the banks which allows the waves to bounce back and forth across the narrow river. If Lake Erie's shoreline was deep like that, then reflection might be an isuue.

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John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 04/17/2007 : 15:42:45

50' waves on Lake Erie? I'm not sure I believe but check this out.

http://www.cleveland.com/photooftheday/

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/17/2007 : 16:09:06

Yeah, 50' is rather a tsunami.

[url="http://www.glerl.noaa.gov/res/glcfs/glcfs.php?lake=l&ext=wv&type=N&hr=00"]Great Lakes Wave Heights[/url]

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Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 04/17/2007 : 17:00:33

Well, if it's in the paper it must be true....... So how many people got washed out of downtown?

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/17/2007 : 17:03:13

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 50' waves on Lake Erie? I'm not sure I believe but check this out.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I checked Don's link for yesterday's heights--they were 5' around Cleveland.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 04/17/2007 17:11:41

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 04/17/2007 : 17:42:06

That's the problem with charts. 5' waves would not have crested the wall in the photo. A 50' wave would have taken the dad & kid with it. Should we re-visit that storm surge discussion of a few weeks ago.....

naaaawwwww, better not.

Edited by - John Russell on 04/17/2007 17:42:26

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 04/17/2007 : 18:11:04

Wonder what the tide was doing when they took the picture......

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glivs
Admiral

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USA
836 Posts

Response Posted - 04/17/2007 : 20:06:24

To extend this interesting discussion beyond its original theme I would like to share an observation. At various times in my career I've explored mapping waves from spaceborne observations using both c-band and visible portions of the spectrum. The waves you have been discussing are certainly of interest to us as sailors but they are not the only, or necessarily the most interesting, waves. That aside, it is well known that ships wakes can be readily tracked for several nm and long after they would be apparent on the water. I was quite surprised, however, when a few years ago I was looking at some visible/NIR data over Lake Champlain to see wakes 4-5 km in length down wind of the islands in the central area of the lake. It was not their presence that surprised me but the distance over which they were so well defined. I recall winds and wave heights for the day were moderate although I don't recall the details. I did not get the opportunity to look into this again to determine whether this was a surface or internal phenomenon, but I have hung on to the thought that it might be worth paying attention to. Do experienced sailors consider such effects???

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