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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Main Halyard Repair (newbie question)

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Curtis
Deckhand

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USA
3 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/08/2007 : 14:38:21

Anyone out there ever replaced their main halyard on a 1985 Catalina 25?? (I realize that is probably a silly question...of course everyone has!!) This is my first sailboat, and my first halyard replacement/repair. I think I have a regular rig (not a tall rig...although I'm not sure if I could tell the difference) and the halyard had a steel cable lead (only the cable travels through the sheave at the top of the mast). I'm wondering what size and length of line I should use? And whether or not I should contiinue to use a halyard with a cable at the end? Thanks for your help!
ps - I just dug through the archives and found some discussion regarding wire vs. rope, checking the masthead sheave, and using 5/16" line with a length of about 75' - that sound about right??

Joli - 1985 C-25 sr/fk

Edited by - Curtis on 06/08/2007 14:58:28

mcollard
1st Mate

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USA
38 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2007 : 16:50:28

Curtis, I just replaced my halyards on my 1983 tall rig. The consensus of opinion on this site is that all line halyards are superior to the wire originals. If you do that you will need to replace 4 sheaves at the top of the mast. I ordered mine from Catalina Direct. It was not a particularly difficult job. I used 78 feet of 5/16" Sta-set X which I bought from Milwaukee Rigging on ebay. Actually 75 feet would have been enough even for the tall rig.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2007 : 22:17:52

Other things to consider at this juncture - internal halyards and leading them back to the cabin.

I completely agree in getting rid of the wire. Not only is that stuff a PITA, it is unsafe on the bow too. You want your Jib halyard to go all the way down to the tack, not hang 7 feet over the deck where you have to walk around on the foredeck with your hand over your head. But I rant...

Check out CD and also see if anybody has posted the sheave sizes here in the archives. You might be able to find the sheaves online directly from harken.

Edited by - on

Jmurfy
Navigator

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USA
176 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2007 : 00:06:43

I did the same conversion as Mike did on my 1985 C25 Standard Rig and agree 75 feet is plenty to lead aft to the cockpit.

Edited by - on

bmelchionda
1st Mate

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63 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2007 : 07:51:30

Anyone have pictures or description of the main halyard lead aft setup?

Edited by - on

Jmurfy
Navigator

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USA
176 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2007 : 11:56:46

Are you looking for a picture of the blocks leading aft to the cockpit?

Edited by - on

bmelchionda
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 06/10/2007 : 19:53:40

Yes, that would be great. I am curious to see what and where it takes to get the lines led aft.

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Jmurfy
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USA
176 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2007 : 22:58:07

Bryan, I checked to see if I had any photo's of the two blocks that lead my main halyard aft but unfortunately I dont have any. Maybe somebody else from the forum has the detail pictures?

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bmelchionda
1st Mate

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63 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2007 : 06:28:18

Thanks Jmurfy. If it is not too much trouble, maybe you can describe the hardware and location which brings the halyard aft?

Edited by - on

Jmurfy
Navigator

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USA
176 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2007 : 22:57:51

It would be easier for me to take a picture the next time I'm at the boat. If your not in any rush I'll send it this weekend.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 06/12/2007 : 18:36:45

There are quite a few photos of hardware upgrades and options from several Catalina 25s at my pages, just go to them from the link in my sig.

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Menehune
Deckhand

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USA
2 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2008 : 10:10:17

I too am a newbie and have learned a great deal from the many helpful postings related to Curtis' questions. My Catalinia is used exclusively on Lake Dillion (elevation 9,500 feet) which can experience quickly shifting winds of moderate intensity. I sail solo about 40% of the time. I have a couple more questions that I hope I can get some help with:
1. Has anyone tried a simple, inexpensive, Lazy Jack assembly on the Catalinia 25; with the option for "cockpit" operation? If so, would you please share it?
2. I am looking to control the Main Halyard from the cockpit. My Catalinia uses an external rope Halyard that attaches to a wire line that runs between the masthead sheave and mainsail head, all are in good operating condition. The Harken website indicates a block with a Safe Working Load of 500 pounds is adequate for the angle change between the mast and the deck organizer. Is this supported by member experience? Also, can anyone share their successful assembly for cockpit operation; I am particularly interested in the block, deck organizer, rope clutch and winch specifications?

Thanks for any help or advice!

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2008 : 12:47:58

John... That upgrade will also call for replacing the halyard and masthead sheaves since you'll need a longer halyard. One simple approach is to get the components from Catalina Direct--they have complete kits (Harken blocks and organizers, Spinlock clutches, etc.) and will put together any combination you want. From what I found a few years back, you won't likely do significantly better on cost by buying the stuff elsewhere, and CD knows just what you need.

Edit: I didn't feel the need for a winch for the main halyard, and kept the jib furler halyard and winch on the mast. I did add a main dousing line which I led back with the halyard.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/18/2008 12:51:18

Menehune
Deckhand

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USA
2 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2008 : 18:35:46

David -

Thanks for the good advice. I just checked what I thought it would take to make the change and the cost was around $483. My Catalinia Direct price sheet tells me what I am looking at should be around $400. Now the Catalinia Direct assembly does not include the Winch (probably around $160) but your advice indicates I can do without one. (I do NOT have Winch for the Main Halyard currently, even on the mast; just on the gunwale (my "stink-pot" days show) for the jib sheet (I use a furler with genoa). Looks like your experience from a few years ago is still true!

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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4593 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2008 : 22:04:24

If your masthead sheaves and wire portion of the halyards are still in good condition, and you are not converting to internal halyards, you might consider replacing just the rope portion of the halyards and save about $300. If your mast is up, tie a spare line to each end of the wire portion of your halyards so you can cleat them off and not lose the halyards and take the rope portion to the shop for measuring the new lines, then reverse the process.
To secure the halyards after sailing, my prior owner mounted cleats with an eye at one end to the aft lower shrouds at about head level. I like it because it keeps the halyards off of the mast, minimizing the wind chime effect.

Edited by - dmpilc on 02/18/2008 22:13:17

skrenz
Captain

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USA
351 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2008 : 22:54:58

I agree with what's been said before about changing from a wire halyard to a rope halyard. You may know this already but just a word that there are many different kinds of rope out there. The reason there was a wire halyard in the first place was to minimize the amount of stretch in the halyard. So you want to make sure that you replace your wire halyard with a line that has the least amount of strectch. Wire stretches about 0.1%. Sta-Set X stretches about 1.6% In between is an array of lines running from the common to the exotic. As with anything else: more exotic, more money. One advantage to looking at a more exotic line is that many of these lines have higher strengths than your average Sta-Set X. Which means that you can go with a smaller diameter line. For example 5/16" Sta-Set X has a breaking strength of 4400 lbs but Samson Amsteel Dyneema achieves 5000 lbs in 3/16" and stretches only 0.7%. So it might be possible to forgo the cost and bother of changing out your halyard shieves to accomidate larger diameter line if you can use smaller diameter line of higher strength that will fit in your shieve. Now it is true that some shieves are made specifically for wire (have a little groove) but its worth a look.
The August 2007 issue of Practical Sailor Vol 33 Number 8,(http://www.practical-sailor.com/issues/33_8/features/5478-1.html)has an in depth discussion of lines available for halyards.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3477 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2008 : 05:19:26

Good point about the looking into the characteristics of the line - strength and stretch. For years, i never gave it much thought. Just picked out what looked like a nice line. But when talking about long lengths such as for the genoa sheets, halyards, etc, the stretch enters into the equation. There is also another factor to consider when selecting a line and that is the stiffness. Some line may be high strength and low stretch but may be too stiff for the application. There are some charts on the web from the line mfrs and also the distributors that make recommendations as to what lines to use for different applications. I would review those charts before making a line selection. For my genoa and main sheets I recently bought Samson line XLS-T: Use the entire URL below -
http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|118|311417|314169|749715&id=749142

It was recommended by others and also by some distributors for the intended application. Good thing I looked into the recommendations versus just selecting based on strength and stretch because i was all set to buy a differnet line but never saw it mentioned in charts for my intended application until I then saw some comments regarding stiffness and it was UNSAT for my intended application. Then I started to give the stiffness parameter more thought and especially after I then checked out the lines in the store and saw the difference in stiffness. Some lines just will not work that well with winches or turning on small blocks.

Edited by - OLarryR on 02/19/2008 06:04:08

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2008 : 10:01:34

Back to the original question: replacing the main halyard. If you cleat the halyard on the mast and replace only the rope portion, you are talking about 30-35 ft at about $0.68 - 0.75 per foot for 5/16" - 3/8" line, 45' if you lead the halyard back to the cockpit.
If you have a furling headsail, I suspect that the problem of the wire/rope halyard not coming all the way down to the bow is somewhat moot.
We've had our Catalina 22 for over 30 years and are still using the original wire portion of the halyards. If it ain't broke, why fix it, unless you just want something different. I do understand that.
Also, I sail on inland lakes, so my issues and concerns are different from those of you who sail on the big pond!

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2008 : 10:56:51

Rant here:
The wire to rope halyards that Catalina used were broke when they installed them. A decent wire to rope halyard with a proper wire to rope splice is a fine, if old fashioned, halyard. A rope to wire thimble "Joint" (for lack of a better word), is an abomination. I found the thimble prone to wedging at the lower shroud tang on the mast, requiring a dash to the mast to deal with it. Another issue is mast abuse, wires and thimbles trash masts, scrapping anodizing off and causing abrasions that are unacceptable,... and the noise of a non-silenced wire halyard is vicious. The best use for the wire portion of our old halyards is as a topping lift section. And on a purely superficial and egotistical perspective, they were the cheapest solution available and therefore embarrassing to me. The conversion to all rope was literally the first upgrade I did to my '82.
Disagreeing with me is fine... just inconceivable!

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 02/19/2008 : 22:37:42

Frank wrote: Disagreeing with me is fine... just inconceivable!

I can understand that coming from a school teacher.

Actually, I agree with you on the mast abuse and noise issues. Haven't experienced the "wedging" problem yet. As indicated above, replacing the stock halyards with all rope is an expensive upgrade, several boat units. I was merely pointing out a more economical alternative in case he's on a budget. Everyone's sailing conditions are different, calling for different solutions.

Edited by - dmpilc on 02/19/2008 22:38:16

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 02/19/2008 : 23:56:48

On the subject of stretch, the halyards I got from CD in about 2001 (don't remember the brand) were excellent, and I tested them but good! My jib halyard held the Hood furler swivel up, and the furler required tension to hold the drum steady, as it was shackled to the stem fitting. In the spring, I hoisted the whole thing and winched it quite tightly... by fall, I couldn't detect a half inch of sag at the furler drum, and it would have been obvious. Good stuff!

Edited by - on

skrenz
Captain

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USA
351 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2008 : 12:53:44

I can't agree with the comment "replacing the stock halyards with all rope is an expensive upgrade". This is only true if you are talking about replacing the mast sheaves. But if you replace the original wire rope with Amsteel line, replacing the sheaves will not be necessary.

Look at the facts:
The original wire rope size for the Cat 25 is 1/8" 7-19 which has a breaking strength of 1,760 lbs. The wire sells on West Marine for $1.79 per foot.
Samson Amsteel Dyneema 1/8" (SK-60) has a breaking strength of 2,100 lbs and sells for $0.91 per foot. Even if you go to the higher quality (SK-78) Dyneema, it sells for $1.39 per foot.

Amsteel Dyneema has high resistance to flex-fatigue (higher than wire rope), has good "hand" that is it doesn't get stiff with age, has none of the safety concerns that wire rope has, will not require any kind of wire to rope splice, has minimal stretch, will not noisily bang against the mast, is easily spliced, is UV protected, and it even floats. Being the same diameter as the original wire rope, it will fit in the sheaves without replacing them. Going with hi tech line is not only stronger but will actually cost less money than replacing the lines with wire rope.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 02/21/2008 : 16:17:17

Curtis did not say if his wire rope was damaged or in good condition. Menehune did say his wire was in good condition. My "expensive upgrade" comment was predicated on the wire portion not needing to be replaced, just something nice to do. If the condition of the wire rope is such that it needs replacement as well as the line, then I would recommend going to all rope. My wire rope seems to be in good shape and I secure the halyards to cleats on the shrouds so they don't bang on the mast. When I use the jib dousing line, the jib halyard shackle and the wire stays up at the forestay attached to the dousing line. If my wire rope starts to fray before my next haul-out, I'll reassess the situation.
The condition of the masthead sheaves is another consideration. My C-22 mast is down at home right now with that boat in the shop, so I checked them last night and they are in good shape. I bought 2 ft. samples of 4mm and 5mm line at WM yesterday and the 4mm fits the C-22 sheaves exactly, so I may make that swap-out in the near future.

Edited by - dmpilc on 02/21/2008 16:34:28

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 02/21/2008 : 20:00:24

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by skrenz
 I can't agree with the comment "replacing the stock halyards with all rope is an expensive upgrade". This is only true if you are talking about replacing the mast sheaves...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">The four custom-made sheaves I bought from Belpat Marine (when there were no stock sheaves in the USA that worked for 5/8" rope and fit our mastheads) cost me something like $25 total.

One of the many reasons I converted to all rope was that my wire-to-rope halyards were such that the wire was wrapped around the mast winch, which didn't work well for tensioning. I don't know how anyone envisions splicing new braded rope to old twisted wire--I certainly don't know how to do it, and I don't see the point of trying. Sheaves are not the issue.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/21/2008 20:02:57

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 02/21/2008 : 21:16:28

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Samson Amsteel Dyneema 1/8" (SK-60) has a breaking strength of 2,100 lbs and sells for $0.91 per foot. Even if you go to the higher quality (SK-78) Dyneema, it sells for $1.39 per foot.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Would 1/8" Dyneema work okay in my original sheaves? They look like new, and so does my wire halyard. If I ran the 1/8" down to the base of the mast and spliced in 5/16" for the run through the clutches and into the cockpit.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 02/21/2008 : 21:30:26

Sounds sorta like what Derek Crawford did.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/21/2008 21:30:47

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