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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Broken Rudder

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Cate
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199 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/25/2007 : 06:25:24

(tried to post image here, but having a problem)
Yesterday the top of our rudder broke off while docking. Even though it was quite an adventure trying to get ourselves into the slip (with the help of three people on land), I consider it a blessing in disguise since it didn't break while we were out on the high seas under sail. The piece of wood attached to the tiller crumbled in my hands. The rudder was rotted to the core. (after 24 years)

Needless to say we will need to replace the rudder and I need some advice. We are looking at the balanced rudder at CD, but were also considering the uni-foil kick-up rudder. The reason why I was considering the kick up rudder is that our docking situation is very narrow. At low tide we have very little water at our stern and backing out is always nerve wracking. Yesterday our rudder got stuck in the mud while backing out...I guess too far. My concern about the kick up rudder is that we will lose a large amount of steering ability if it is out of the water. It is also considerably more expensive than the full balanced rudder.

Lastly, has anyone bought a new rudder from Catalina Yachts? Sometimes their prices are slightly better than CDs

1983 C-25, Standard rig, swing keel

Edited by - Cate on 06/25/2007 06:44:26

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 06/25/2007 : 06:36:48

Joe Koehler (the new owner of my old boat - had the same thing happen this season - except we were out in 8ft seas and some pretty big wind. He replaced it with an Ida Sail Kick up that in my opinion had much better balance than the original - even with the smaller surface area. I'd try reaching him through this forum to see how he likes it after having it a while as I only helmed the boat one time with the new rudder.

Edited by - on

Cate
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199 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2007 : 06:39:06

http://homepage.mac.com/poolec/Mysterious/PhotoAlbum29.html
Picture of broken rudder here.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2007 : 07:16:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Cate

(tried to post image here, but having a problem)<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

At .mac you need to click on the slide show to make the thumbs large, then when you get to the exact photo you want you click on that photo again and it will open a new window which has the url of that full sized photo, that is the url you paste.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2007 : 07:21:27

That is one ugly sight!!

Edited by - on

DaveC25
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152 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2007 : 08:22:59

Well, at least you could still reach down there and steer the boat a little. I'd rather have it do that than break on the other end. :)

-DaveC25

Edited by - DaveC25 on 06/28/2007 07:45:01

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2007 : 08:46:52

(This isn't directed to you, Cate--obviously, you get it.)

That picture tells the story to those who think and ask about repairing their 20-30-year-old original C-25 rudders. Those split seams, elongated pintle holes, and even the tiller bolt hole, are all avenues--no, boulevards--for moisture to get into the wood core inside the head. Often the split seams are due to the freezing of that moisture. You'll never really know what part of that core is good and what isn't. It only takes a bad spot to turn into what's in Cate's picture, which can ruin your whole day, and possibly hurt somebody. IMHO, when you see signs of trouble, get out your CD Owner's Handbook and make the wise investment.

Getting down off the soapbox...

(Edited to remove the oversize picture that made viewing the thread difficult.)

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 06/27/2007 10:59:41

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 06/25/2007 : 08:57:29

One more thing, Cate... I would think, for backing out, that you could maneuver the boat with the engine, and then drop the rudder when you're moving forward. Having no rudder down might even make the maneuvering easier in that instance. It definitely sounds like the kick-up would be a good idea for you. (But I've never even seen one on a C-25...)

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 06/25/2007 09:02:05

Cate
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199 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2007 : 09:07:07

The uni-foil kick up rudder we are cosnidering is here:
http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=1415

$700 (wow)

The standard balanced rudder is here:
http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=1277

$419 (okay)

We are in a tight spot pulling out of the slip. Marshy, mud awaits us as we have to do a fairly quick turn out. Wondering if new gudgeons with standard rudder would be okay even if we sludged into the mud every now and then,

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2007 : 09:27:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Cate
 We are in a tight spot pulling out of the slip. Marshy, mud awaits us as we have to do a fairly quick turn out. Wondering if new gudgeons with standard rudder would be okay even if we sludged into the mud every now and then,
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Even at a very low speed, you're dragging the blade at a slight angle with 6000 lbs. of momentum... I wouldn't want to. (...and the new fixed blade looks deeper.)

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Champipple
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Response Posted - 06/25/2007 : 09:37:51

According to IDa Sail - the new rudder is about a 10% improvement with balance and weather helm. We had some decent gusts comin and it handled well.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2007 : 16:20:51

Kicked up rudders hit props.

Edited by - on

Cate
Navigator

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199 Posts

Response Posted - 06/27/2007 : 06:19:28

UPDATE:
Had a very good conversation with Lowell at CD about rudders. He asked a lot of questions about how and where we sail. He gave me the scoop on the orginal rudders, fiberglass rudders and the newer HDPE uni-foils. When all was said and done he recommended the Idasailor kick-up uni-foil. (he had not heard of them hitting props)
The bummer was that the back log for these rudders, and all Idasailor rudders is about 4 weeks out. Busy time of year.

I called around for different prices and to see if anyone had any in stock and sailboatowners.com was able to find me one that had not been claimed. It is a D class uni-foil kick up for the C25. Ready to ship. A little more robust than the C ++ rudder. Thicker, heavier, tad longer. But for a little more money we will be able to get out there and not miss a month of sailing.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/27/2007 : 10:36:10

Whether it gets knicked by the prop depends on how it kicks up. I had to watch that with my Daysailer. From what I recall of the Ida kick-up, when fully raised, it should be well above the prop, and when fully down, it should be no closer than any other rudder. It should never be partway between up and down (too much stress), which is why Ida's shear-pin is a good idea, although I suspect it only works going forward, not when backing. I think I'd keep the rudder up backing out of your shallow slip.

Good luck with it, Cate!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 06/27/2007 10:37:28

jkoeh
Deckhand

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USA
14 Posts

Response Posted - 06/27/2007 : 21:52:37

I have the Ida sailor kick up rudder on Duane's old C25 and I am well pleased with the performance, there is such little effort required to stear now, it also means less wear and tear on a tiller pilot and faster swings with less load. As far as the kick up aspect, in western Lake Erie, there are plenty of unexpected shallows and having the kick up has saved me twice already, once on the journey from Cleveland to Port Clinton and again when my son was piloting the boat out of a very narrow and shallow channel. In both cases, I am quite certain that the old rudder would have been damaged, all we had to do with this one is replace a $2.99 delrin pin. The latest version of the Idasailor product has a gas shock, no pin, which is even nicer than the full board style I have. It is the same from the water line down, but totally retracts out of the water when in the up position.

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