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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Swageless fitting for Swing Keel...Comments Please

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albert
Captain

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USA
262 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/19/2002 : 01:50:00

Iposted this a while back, but had no responses...Here goes again...

It appears that the main point of failure for the swing keels is the pressure fitted swage end fitting and/or the rotation of this same fitting at the keel attachment point causing bending and eventual failure of the swage fitting.

For those who have had the unfortunate experience of 'dropping the keel', what component actually caused the failure? Is my first paragraph valid--does failure occur at the swage fitting? I read that someone once replaced a cable that had caused a drop only to have the new one fail due to a bad swage fitting.

If the failue is at the swage fitting; why not replace the pressed on fitting with a Suncor(or other brand) swageless terminal? Recently I read (I believe in Don Casey's "This Old Boat" book) that swageless fittings are far superior than swaged on fittings. If this is also true THEN replacing the standard inherently weak swaged fitting should significantly reduce the weakness at this point.

Combine a swageless fitting with the "non-swiveling" attachment point upgrade and we should have far fewer keel drops.

Also note that the swageless fittings can be removed, the wire inspected, then re-attached - only the internal cone would need to be replaced.

See http://www.bosunsupplies.com/GoodOldBoatQuickAttach.CFM for article on swageless fittings.

Comments please....
-Is Don Casey correct that the swageless fittings are superior (he said that he has not seen one fail yet)?
-How would cable rust effect the swageless connection?
-How well do the swageless fittings hold up underwater?
-What are other points of failure?

Albert Iturrey
al@comhertz.com
Abacus': http://www.comhertz.com/abacus

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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1893 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2002 : 14:22:19

Albert,

I like your idea. Swing keels aside, I have seen too many failed swaged sailboat fittings with rust creeping out at the wire and hairline cracks down the side of the barrel. On the other hand, I've never heard of a (properly installed) swageless fitting failing in service, and they're not all that hard to install right.

Also, I worry about the swaged terminal on a C-25 swing keel cable getting pinched and bent or cracked or otherwise damaged when a nearly retracted swing keel touches hard sand bottom in waves. The swageless terminals, like the Suncor, Norseman, and Sta-lock, seem to be a bit shorter and a whole lot thicker, and therefore maybe less likely to be damaged under those circumstances.

Re: "How would cable rust effect the swageless connection?" As for rust inside the terminal, I think the answer is the same for both types. Fill the terminal with sealant before assembly. I prefer 3M-5200 for swages, and polysulfide for getting the swageless ones back apart, although 3M-5200 might be a good idea there too for submerged fittings.

Re: "Is Don Casey correct that the swageless fittings are superior?" That's the way I'm betting. When I recently replaced all my standing rigging, I used Sta-Locks everywhere except the lightly loaded split backstay legs.

Re: "How well do the swageless fittings hold up underwater?" That's a very good question. I suppose it depends alot on the alloy used and the degree of finish. I think the Sta-Locks are 316 alloy, and I can attest that they are very well polished.

Re: "What are other points of failure?" Here's my list of known or suspected possibilities (for swing keel owners who find themselves sleeping too well at night):

- Crevice corrosion in stainless steel parts submerged in saltwater. These include: cable, lifting eye, pivot hanger bolts & female inserts.

- Winch drum dissolving from exposure to saltwater brought up on the cable. (My 6 year old winch is about rusty enough to replace.)

- Hull pounding against trailing edge of retracted keel in waves when driven aground on lee shore. (Maybe 1 C-25 I've heard of.)

- Threads in cast iron keel for cable eye rusting and stripping out from water intrusion. (Maybe 1 C-25 I've heard of.)

- Extreme shock loads on keel pivot assembly from abnormal directions resulting from a C-25 being allowed to pound against a rock breakwater in heavy waves with keel extended. (Maybe 1 C-25 I've heard of, details vague.)

- Shock loads resulting from keel riding up over an obstruction, and then dropping back down. (Happened to me twice so far, without catastrophic results, but it will sure get your attention!)

- Shock loads resulting from keel dropping down as a result of a sudden failure in the lifting system. (This one has sunk several boats.)

I don't know if all of these have occurred, although some are well known. That's my list of swing keel problems to lose sleep over. Notice that they can largely be avoided with proper preventative maintenannce and good seamanship. Now don't you new swing keel owners all run out and sell you boats in a blind panic! I'll bet there's a list just as long and scary for fixed keel problems.<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

([Preview] feature is screwing up again.)

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

albert
Captain

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262 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2002 : 17:23:40

Leon,

Thanks for the reply. I do remember recently reading somewhere that its a good idea to fill either fitting with 5200 to prevent internal corrosion.

I'm due for swing keel cable maintenance soon. My cable is shiny (was replaced by previous owner) but is two years old already. When I haul out, if my cable looks good below, I'll cut off the old swaged on fitting and replace with a swageless fitting.

*** Do you think painting the cable and swage assembly with a "rust-lok" or epoxy barrier type product (after assembly) would help?

Albert Iturrey
al@comhertz.com
Abacus': http://www.comhertz.com/abacus

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2002 : 20:46:50

Albert,<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>... if my cable looks good below, I'll cut off the old swaged on fitting and replace with a swageless fitting.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>I think I'll just buy a new length of cable, it's not real expensive without the end terminal installed. I'd be concerned about the condition if the inside of the old cable where I can't see.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Do you think painting the cable and swage assembly with a "rust-lok" or epoxy barrier type product (after assembly) would help?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>I have no idea, but I wouldn't be in any hurry to subject healthy stainless steel to strong acids, which is what a lot of anti-rust treatments are. You might try contacting the manufacturers of the products (swageless fittings, barrier coats) for advice. If you do, I suggest you try to speak to a product engineer with some knowledge of chemistry, not just the sales staff.<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

If you find out anything interesting, let us know!

-- Leon Sisson

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mroettersr
Navigator

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USA
148 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2002 : 00:37:47

This spring I just replaced the keel cable on my C25 with one purchased from Catalina Direct. The keel end of the old cable had the cable wrapped around a ss thimble with a swaged sleeve. The new cable had a swaged fork terminal on the end. Is one better than the other? It seemed to me the thimble and swaged sleeve would be stronger. The old cable was developing some fish hooks around the drum and had the be replaced. I was somewhat suprised the see the different keel attachment.

Mike Roetter
'83 C25 #3568 SK/SR

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Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2002 : 18:08:46

Mike Roetter,<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>cable wrapped around a ss thimble with a swaged sleeve<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>What you describe sounds to me like a NicoPress(sp?) sleeve with thimble. I'm not aware of that having ever been factory approved by Catalina for this application. That doesn't automatically make it a bad idea, though.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Is one better than the other? It seemed to me the thimble and swaged sleeve would be stronger.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>I actually kinda like NicoPress sleeves, although some folks don't consider them "proper" or "appropriate" on a real yacht. When I picture both a NicoPress installation and a swaged fitting after having each gotten a bit bent and mangled, I think I'd have more confidence in the remaining strength of the NicoPress, although that's just a gut feeling unsupported by any scientific evidence. The most significant limitation I've run into is getting all the strands to share the load equally around the thimble on larger wires with a small number of strands. (In my experience, 1/8" or 5/32" seems to be the practical upper limit for 1x19 wire.) Also, I've heard it said that there's a tendency for the wire to fatigue right at the sleeve on the opposite side from the thimble. One way to minimize this is to use two sleeves a couple of inches apart. You might also want to check to see if NicoPress sleeves are approved for 1/4"-7x7 SS wire, or whatever diameter and construction you're dealing with.

Please don't take me for an expert on this topic. Shop around for more info before deciding that NicoPress is an OK substitution here.

-- Leon Sisson

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mroettersr
Navigator

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USA
148 Posts

Response Posted - 07/24/2002 : 00:18:11

Leon,
Perhaps this is all a mute point. The business end of the cable seemed to be solid before I replaced it. With the shallow water in my marina, I must raise the keel for docking. The cable on the drum will probably fail long before the cable/keel attachment due to the amount or cranking. The two Ventures (2-24 and 17) had thimbles but the keels were much lighter than the C25 swinger. My C22 was the swaged fork set-up.

Mike

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