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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

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Ken Cave
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USA
148 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/20/2002 : 00:18:12

This summer I have found two Catalinas with to-hulls still installed, one anchored in Portland Island in British Columbia with a leaking to hull, and another in Anacortes at the Cap Sante Marina that just put his boat in the water!

This one was a sinking waiting to happen, as his also showed leakage. He had about twenty pounds of bottled water against the unit when he asked me to inspect his boat.

Please! do your fellow sailors a favor. If you see a Catalina 25, ask him if he has installed thru-hulls! Unfortunately only a minority of Catalina owners even know that this site exists and don't know about this potential problem!

Ken Cave

Edited by - on

Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2002 : 01:44:20

Ken we sure have missed you. Here is a little help. My to hull and how it looked just after I removed it. A picture is worth a thousand words.<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2dd00b3127cce9d5f16f68cc30000005410" border=0>

Doug&Ruth
Wind Lass
Tacoma Wa.

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Dennis Pierce
1st Mate

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USA
59 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2002 : 07:52:04

An observation......I have owned a C-27 and C-30, both with Atomic 4 inboards, a C-30 with a diesel and my current boat is a C-25 FK. The newest of the four boats is the 1979 C-25. I have never had a problem with the to hull fittings. However, I did replace crappy gate valves with quality bronze or copper lever ball valves. I suspect that part of the problem is not recognizing the fact that dissimilar metals are the real culprit here.

Dennis Pierce
Gypsy Witch #1719

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FrankV
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USA
135 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2002 : 14:14:30

Ken,
I waited to see what everyone else said, but I just have to put my two cents in:

I have a 1979 Cat 25 with to-hulls and 23 years later I can see no evidence of a leak. I check them every month and they are fine. When we bought the boat the surveyor mentioned them but said they looked ok to him. He was more upset over the lack of a vented loop in the head. I did fix this so a leaking head would not sink the boat.

Could the picture be from a salt water kept boat, and shows the effects of Galvanic erosion?

I checked with the 25 and 27 Cat owners I can find in our marina and no one has had a problem.

Out of how many thousands of boats built, what is the failure rate? I just don't see any Catalina boats sinking at the marina.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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4382 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2002 : 14:36:50

If I'd owned a digital camera four years ago I'd post a picture of a mast sticking out of the water at the the moorings on our lake. Reason for sinking - through-hull dislodged. Replacing through-hulls is too easy a project not to do for just-in-case sakes.
Yesterday evening someone on our dock said they contacted Catalina Direct and quoted them as saying that bronze is the wrong material to use for a through-hull! Were they assuming a salt water application?

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Steve
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Response Posted - 07/22/2002 : 15:24:56

I hate to ask a stupid question, but what's the difference between a to-hull and a thru-hull? What would my 1987 model have?

Steve

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Champipple
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Response Posted - 07/22/2002 : 16:44:34

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I hate to ask a stupid question, but what's the difference between a to-hull and a thru-hull? What would my 1987 model have?

Steve
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

In basic terms, the to hull is a pipe mounted into the fiberglass that goes "to the hull". A thru-hull has a fitting on both sides.

Just a note here as well - I had my boat inspected by a very good friend of mine this past year. I specifically asked him about the to hulls...His response was pretty simple...they look okay, and everything seems to be solid. As with anything, just like the keel trunk and keel cable, keep an eye on them and inspect them frequently. He was actually more concerned with the gate valves than he was with the to-hulls. According to him, both were a product of the period in which the boat was built, neither are up to code currently, but that doesn't mean they don't work.

I think the real thing here is to be aware of the possibility of a problem. If you still have them inspect them regularly. (Ours is on our weekly cleaning checklist) If you know your boat has ever been beached, or run aground definitely check them.

DW

Duane Wolff
"The Flying Wasp"
C-25, #401 std,sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b1ce23b3127cce9b043565af3d0000004010" border=0>

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2002 : 16:59:52

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Steve
1st Mate

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USA
87 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2002 : 16:59:59

So how do I tell which ones I have? I don't know if there's fittings on the exterior or not; I stay in the water year round and I'm not planning on hauling again until April. Can I tell from inside the boat? If the to-hulls are that big of a problem I may pull it earlier.

Steve

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2002 : 17:12:26

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
So how do I tell which ones I have?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
"To-hulls" have a bronze pipe set into a "mushroom" (or "gob") of epoxy inside the hull. The threads on the pipe, inside the gob, are what hopefully hold it in place. "Thru-hulls" have a collar screwed onto the plastic or bonze pipe coming through the hull, and ideally have a small backing board under the collar--but no big gob of epoxy.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette "Passage" in SW CT

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Steve
1st Mate

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87 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2002 : 17:33:42

Dave,

Thanks for the reply. I think you posted your answer at the same time I was posting additional questions. I obviously have "thru hulls".

I've only seen one Catalina 25 on the bottom, courtesy of Hurricane George. What a sad sight.

Steve.

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Buzz Maring
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1768 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2002 : 19:16:42

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Yesterday evening someone on our dock said they contacted Catalina Direct and quoted them as saying that bronze is the wrong material to use for a through-hull! Were they assuming a salt water application?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Steve,

Did your dock mate say what kind of material Catalina Direct recommended? ... 'nylon? ... 'something else? Did the folks at Catalina Direct give a reason? I'm stumped ...

Buzz Maring, C-25 SK/SR #68, "Freya"

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OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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4382 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2002 : 21:09:33

Buzz, the conversation was interupted by the grandson. If I get time, I'll call CD tomorrow to follow-up.

BTW, anyone know the origin of the word nylon?

Edited by - OJ on 07/22/2002 21:10:49

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2002 : 22:16:21

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
BTW, anyone know the origin of the word nylon?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
No, but the common alternative for bronze for through-hulls is Marelon, which I suspect is a variant on nylon. That's what most of us have as a thru-hull in the transom for the bilge pump. Ironically, the primary knock on Marelon is that UV tends to degrade it, which means that it should be less desirable above the waterline. I just don't know who bo believe anymore! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette "Passage" in SW CT

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Ken Cave
Navigator

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USA
148 Posts

Response Posted - 07/25/2002 : 01:16:05

Bronze is probably your safest best in either salt or fresh water. If you look at the boats of fifty years or more, you will see bronze thru hulls.

As far as you to-hulls wannabees, I won't bring up this subjest again-until I come across another batch of to-hulls that are leaking.

A friend of mine in a Coronado 28 had some piping under his sink that broke apart when he touched it!! Had it broken on its own, he would also be looking at the top of the mast!!

Be sure to check all your connections that come in contact with outside water!

Ken Cave

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/25/2002 : 09:11:46

Ken: Maybe you should get the NHTSA to force a recall... (or should it be the NWTSA?)

As for me, four holes below the waterline (speed, depth, and two drains) is four too many! Not one of them works consistently, anyway. There has to be a better solution for all of them!

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette "Passage" in SW CT

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jandrus
1st Mate

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USA
79 Posts

Response Posted - 07/25/2002 : 10:05:32

Nylon - According to "Context", a Du Pont company publication (vol. 7, no. 2, 1978), when the material was first developed, it was called 'polyhexamethyleneadipamide'. Realizing the stuff needed a catchier name than that, the company thought of 'duprooh', an acronym for 'Du Pont pulls rabbit out of hat', but instead settled on 'no-run' until it was pointed out that stockings made of the material were not really run-proof. So the spelling of the word was reversed to 'nuron', which was modified to 'nilon' to make it sound less like a nerve tonic. Then, to prevent a pronunciation like 'nillon', the company changed 'i' to 'y', producing 'nylon'. Thus beneath that apparently quite arbitrary word lurks the English expression 'no-run'.

Nylon: first produced 1938. Was the first polymer based fiber sucesffuly produced. First fiber made exclusively from petrochemicals instead of cellulose. When we're talking about nylon fittings we're really talking about nylon fiber reinforced plastic fittings - like the rest of the boat.

Marelon - Trademark for fiberglass reinforced plastic

c25 #1942 s/v tako kichi

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/25/2002 : 11:21:36

Wow! Can I leave now--my brain's full! (Gary Larson)

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette "Passage" in SW CT

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RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 07/25/2002 : 15:38:13

Dave:

"That's what most of us have as a thru-hull in the transom for the bilge pump."

I'm certainly no expert, but could this piece be made of "regular" nylon or plastic (cheap), not Marelon (not so cheap)? The Boat US insurance magazine did a piece about this issue a while back. Nylon and plastic are not very UV resistant and can easily break down over time in this above-the-water-line application -- usually not a big problem. But it can become a BIG problem (e.g. a sinking boat) if this piece, when cracked from common overexposure to the sun, becomes under-the-water-line due to overloading by people and/or equipment, leaky boats combined with bilge pump failure, blocked cockpit drains combined with heavy rain, etc.

Could someone confirm the true material this piece is made of?

Regarding Marelon, this is what Forespar (who makes many products containing it) has to say about it:

Marelon® - Marine Grade Plumbing Systems

Non-Corrosive
Non-Conductive
Fire Resistant
Impact Resistant
Temp. Range -40° to +250° F
U.V. Resistant

In the late 1970's, a search was undertaken for a material that could replace the traditional bronze and brass plumbing components in boats. The frequency of severe corrosion, and the problem of conductivity in bronze, had long been a source of frustration for designers and boat builders. And, owners had to deal with the risk and costs of this ancient metal in their modern boats.

Marelon® is a formulation of glass reinforced Dupont Zytel®. It is optimized for marine use above and below the waterline with maximum U.V. inhibitors, and it will not support combustion. Additional marine benefits of the material are its extreme range of operating temperature and it's resistance to abrupt changes in temperature.

Over the years there have been many thousands of installations exposed to the extreme cold experienced in Alaskan and North European fishing boats, and to the high temperatures of marine engines and exhaust systems. We know of no case of failure of a Marelon® component from weathering or from these extremes of heat or cold.

Critical Marelon® plumbing components are U.L. marine listed (MQ1151R) and exceed A.B.Y.C. (H-27) (American Boat & Yacht Council) standards.

RichardG 81 C25 SR/FK "Sanity"

Edited by - richardg on 07/25/2002 16:58:38

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OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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4382 Posts

Response Posted - 07/25/2002 : 18:40:23

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
but instead settled on 'no-run' until it was pointed out that stockings made of the material were not really run-proof. So the spelling of the word was reversed to 'nuron', which was modified to 'nilon' to make it sound less like a nerve tonic. Then, to prevent a pronunciation like 'nillon', the company changed 'i' to 'y', producing 'nylon'. Thus beneath that apparently quite arbitrary word lurks the English expression 'no-run'.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Well said Justin and interesting. I was told the word nylon came from the cities that was home to the companies/divisions that co-developed it . . . New York and London. However, your version sounds very plausible!

<img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle>

Edited by - OJ on 07/25/2002 18:41:58

Edited by - OJ on 07/25/2002 18:56:04

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/25/2002 : 21:36:47

RichardG: I don't know for sure that the thru-transom is Marelon--I assumed it was because that's the only alternative to bronze I've seen. Catalina would know, and Bill Holcomb probably does. I do recall reading a report (don't know where) that said the disadvantage with Marelon vs bronze was that UV affects Marelon. On my '85, the fitting appears to be fine, but this isn't Florida. I have seen thru-hulls that appeard somewhat chalky on the surface--that doesn't necessarily mean they're about to fail. And I doubt that mine will ever go below the waterline--maybe below an occasional following wave.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette "Passage" in SW CT

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RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2002 : 17:34:06

The tech support guy at Catalina Yachts says the thru-transom piece is made of plastic (not Marelon).

Probably ok -- just keep your cockpit drains clear of leaves and other debris, especially during heavy rain.

RichardG 81 C25 SR/FK "Sanity"

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