Association Forum - Wind Speed

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Wind Speed

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

Member Avatar

Canada
1091 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/25/2007 : 14:28:46

The lake I sail on is about 45 minutes away. I like to have a look at a web site that updates the wind speed every hour prior to heading out. We noticed that for our level (beginner) a good sign telling us that it's time to start packing up is when we start seeing catpaws. Because of the wind dynamics at our lake I learned that when catpaws begin about 1 hour later the winds can be quite strong (need to reef). The lake is considered to be for intermediate to advanced level sailors caused by the proximity of the rocky mountains with regular wind direction and strength shifts.

I sail on fresh water in about 60 feet of water on average on a lake of about 1 mile X 5 miles. I understand the answer can be complex according to the type of water, depth and area but generally speaking at what wind speed do catpaws generaly start to form?

Steve Blackburn, Calgary, AB
C250WB - 1999 - Hull 396

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 08/25/2007 14:32:10

kevinmac
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
732 Posts

Response Posted - 08/25/2007 : 17:13:18

If by "cat's paws" you mean the same thing as what we call "whitecaps" (foam crests), about 10 knots is when they start, i.e. you see very few scattered over a wide area. The more you see, the more above 10 knots. The next stage is when you start to see spray breaking off the tops of the waves, which is at about 15 knots. So if you see a lot of whitecaps, and spray braking from the top of a wave once in a while you probably are above 15 knots. If you see lots of whitecaps and a fair amount of spray, you are probably above 20. If you have more than that, I am usually in the marina bar, so you'll have to tell what it looks like...

FWIW, around here "cat's paws" are the tiny ripples you see on glassy water when the wind is very light, maybe a couple of knots. I think there is a weather effect called a "catspaw" too, but I can't remember what that meaning was. Your region may use the word differently. My English secretary taught me that when she told me she had to go to the store for some "rubbers". (Rubber bands.)

Maybe Paul can translate.

Kevin

Edited by - on

johnsonp
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
606 Posts

Response Posted - 08/26/2007 : 00:59:24

Before there were instruments sailors did what you are doing taking mental notes of changing conditions in the place you are sailing.

What is the name of the lake?

For a definition of cats paw as I use it...

http://users.eastlink.ca/~grahamfamily/termsc.htm

paulj

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

Members Avatar

USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 08/26/2007 : 10:23:14

Steve,
I use a [url="http://www.weatheressentials.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=32&gclid=CMiT95q7k44CFSmkhgodpDaqOQ"]Kestrel 3500[/url] now to gauge windspeed, it wouldn't be much help from 45 minutes away, but it's very useful while you're on the water. It'll tell you the speed in m/s, Kts, MPH, KPH, and [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaufort_scale"]Beaufort Scale[/url] (which is pretty much what you're asking about). It also has temp, time, barometric pressure & trends, altitude, relative humidity, etc., you get the idea. Rita bought me the anemometer for my birthday, but really it was for her own peace of mind. She REALLY doesn't like heeling, so now I have a way to quantify the windspeed.

I can tell you that being out in a force 5 wind on Puget Sound with an unreefed tall rig is a bit more than exciting. I wasn't sure I'd ever get Rita on the boat again, much less have to sell it.

Edited by - delliottg on 08/27/2007 10:06:02

bbriner
Captain

Members Avatar

349 Posts

Response Posted - 08/26/2007 : 11:00:48

Steve - It's understandable that as a beginner you're nervous about higher winds. Since we don't get to choose our weather, you will want to learn how to depower and reef your main (practice this when the wind isn't so strong so you can do it very fast when the wind picks up suddenly). If you have a furling jib you have a lot of control over how much sail you want out; if you have a hank on then use a smaller jib the wind is expected to pick up - not the current conditions. When you learn these techniques then you will feel more confident with higher wind conditions. My wife and I have sailed in Force 7 winds with a small jib and reefed main without too much discomfort (mainly just getting wet). In fact, we sail in Force 6 winds nearly every day it seems so we know the boat can handle it - no worries there. Don't get complacent though! Since things can happen- keep your distance from the lee shore !

Edited by - on

kevinmac
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
732 Posts

Response Posted - 08/26/2007 : 14:20:49

Steve,

I'd add one addendum to Bill's comment below. You are sailing a 250WB, and Bill is sailing a C25. They are different boats. I have not sailed a 250WB, but I do have a 250WK and it is my experience that a fin keel C25 (the only kind I have sailed, not a comment on wing or swing 25s) is a bit stiffer than a 250WK. Whatever the C25 guys are doing at X knots, I end up doing at X - 5 knots, e.g. if they put in the first mainsail reef at 15 knots, I find I have to at 10 knots. I sailed in a race last week with winds 10 gusting to 15, and I reefed the main, while not of the C25s were reefed. I also was keeping up with them (upwind anyway, downwind they all popped their chutes except one, and he beat me too. I think I need to learn to trim my sails better).

I have never sailed in Force 7 (30 knots), but I suspect my boat would have the jib nearly completely furled and the main double reefed at that wind strength.

FWIW.

Edited by - on

bbriner
Captain

Members Avatar

349 Posts

Response Posted - 08/26/2007 : 15:53:50

Steve - Yes my comments are for a C25 fin keel standard rig, which is considered quite 'stiff' so my comments may not be directly applicable to a C250. I have never sailed a C250 so I really have no idea how they sail in specific winds, but I think the general idea of practicing depowering techniques and reefing are probably still good ideas. Also, maybe I'm just paranoid but I really dislike being too close to the hard shore. When things go bad I want some room.

One of the first times I went sailing I was on the bow making sure the anchor rode wasn't tangled and one of the people sailing with me asked what I was doing. I said I wanted to make sure the anchor would work. He laughed and made some comment about since the anchor doesn't have any moving parts why wouldn't it work. I just wanted to make sure I could deploy the anchor in a hurry. Still do :)

Edited by - on

kevinmac
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
732 Posts

Response Posted - 08/26/2007 : 18:20:22

I agree with Bill, the techniques he talked about are vital to any sailboat, I did not mean to negate his advice. I was just adding a bit about the boat differences...

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 08/26/2007 : 22:38:11

Great info guys. The lake I sail on is called Ghost Lake in Alberta Canada. In the beginning of the season my wife would also make those Admiral noises every time we started heeling too much, she's not the marine type. Today we heal as much as we need to and she is fine with it and starting to be more comfortable and enjoy herself. I guess this is easier on a lake where you see the shore at all times. I get her to man the jib sheets, start the engine and recently up and down the main sail and furler jib. This weekend I got her to tiller almost the whole time and she's got it. Even so, she's not a fan, maybe in time...but I see lot's of lonely sailors out there (must be a sign). We are developing a good feeling for the boat and where it's limits stand (and we have probably never been even close). Showed her the MacGregor video where they bring the mast all the way to the water then let the water ballast quickly flip the boat back up (very convincing). Also on the negative side talked about the few horror stories where speedboat run into sailboats, and those 2 kids that drowned in a MacGregor caught down below in lines so we are aware of the dangers but without overly scaring ourselves silly.

Anyhoo...I did practice my reefing this weekend but found the stock reefing system to be quite inefficient and ill-designed. I'm going to be adding blocks like Frog did, or at least modify it to make thing easier, hence safer. Thanks for the tips guys, I'm going to look into these windometers, maybe install a permanent one on the mast top.

I read the definition of Cat's Paw's and now that I know better I shouldve rather said whitecaps. Did some calculations and my threshold speed is about 10 knots about where other C250'ers start reefing. I guess once reefed we're going to be able to enjoy ourselves for longer periods of time, not fun at > 10 knots with full sails. This Sunday was mostly 7-8.5 knot winds, full sails and the boat going about 5-5.5 knots steady without much direction shifts. It was a really nice day.

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 08/26/2007 22:51:10

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

1608 Posts

Response Posted - 08/27/2007 : 15:03:28

There are at least 3 other C250's on Ghost Lake. If you want to take a look at a C250 to see how he rigs a reefing system; find me on the weekend and I will introduce you to Rob D.
Long weekend coming up and you will probably see all the other C250's out there, because the weekend after is Alberta Cup racing.

I havent reefed all season - in fact - when we raised and rigged last spring, we didn't install the reefing lines.
If you track me down, I'll show you what I believe to be the single most important way to sail a heeling sailboat so that a reluctant Admiral will feel comfortable.

Re catspaws: my understanding of catspaws relative to sailing is; any indication of the effect of wind on the water, that has not yet reached the boat you are sailing on. Sometimes this is ripples, sometimes this is the little white whisps coming off waves.
On Ghost lake, cats paws are very important because there can be abrupt wind shifts and there are many geographic influences on direction and speed. Sailing from the mooring field down to Far Cove, a distance of about 4 KM, you can experience 3 major, and several minor wind shifts as a matter of course. You can be at the East end of the lake and be becalmed, while on the other side of Mouse Island there will be sailboats heeled over at 20+ degrees. I think of sailing on Ghost as sailing between pockets of wind.
It has been said that if you can sail on a small windy lake, you are well prepared to take on the ocean. Ghost Lake is a very good example of this.
Because there are so many MacGregors on the lake, most of whom sail with permanently reefed mains and partially furled jibs, you may get the idea that you need to reef. I suggest taking a look at the real sail boats and see what they're doing.
We'll be out there all Long-Weekend, give us shout.

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 08/27/2007 : 17:47:30

Mike, I got your cell phone and will give you a ring while I'm on the water. I crossed paths with Rob a few times. I'm going to install 2 blocks at the cringles to help with reefing as described on this forum.

See you Saturday.

Edited by - on

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.