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Does size really matter?

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John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/29/2007 : 07:07:56

I was reading the curent issue of <i>Sail </i> and an article called <u>Sailing for Geezers</u> (pp94 & foll.) caught my attention. Not because I'm a geezer (well, not much

) but because I figured what's good for geezers would be good for all single-handers.

He brought up the size of his headsail. He contends that the increase in speed generated by his 135 was not sufficient to justify the increased work in managing the sail so he chucked it overboard in favor of a 100% Yankee jib. He claimed it only gave between 0.2 and 0.6 knots increase in speed in similar conditions when compared to the 100% in winds over 8 or 9 knots.

Since I'm thinking about a new headsail for next year, and I thought I wanted a 135% or maybe even a 150%, this intrigued me. I must admit that the 110% I have now is easy to manage and, with the exception of very light wind conditions, I go as fast as I want to go.

What do you think?

John Russell
1999 C250 SR/WK #410
Bay Village, Ohio
Sailing Lake Erie
Don't Postpone Joy!

Edited by - John Russell on 08/29/2007 07:08:43

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2007 : 07:36:32

I just bought a 150 and love it. Yes it's more work but great to get the max performance out of the boat in light winds.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2007 : 07:59:56

A lot depends on the prevailing winds for your area, but a 135 is one of those not too big and not too small type of sails which, for my sailing venue anyway, is the sail of choice 90 percent of the time (maybe even higher).

I had two headsails on my previous boat, a 110 and a genoa, and the 20 year old 110 still looked brand new because it was used so little. My current boat has a furling 135 and when I replace it, it will be with another 135.

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2007 : 08:12:27

I'm with Don. I had my 150 cut down to a 135 and added a furler. It's great for a wide variety of wind conditions and, with the furler, easy to handle. I also have a brand new 110 with luff tape for the furler, which I use as a spare headsail or for racing when winds are appropriate for a 110.

Edited by - on

Renzo
Admiral

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USA
621 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2007 : 08:28:52

I didn't read the article but I may qualify as a Geezer (or at least an old Coot) and I have a 110%, a 150% and a 155%. I have single handed using all of them at one time or another. I will use the 150% in winds up to 10 knots when singlehanding(more, if I have crew and way more if racing) and the increase in speed and handeling are significant. managing the sail on take-down is a matter of tecnique and planning but it is managable and can even be folded on deck for stowage if necessary; but the easiest thing to do is secure it on deck with a bungie cord til you get back to the dock.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2007 : 09:42:26

The rig has a lot to do with the options, most fractional rigs are mainsail driven and a smaller headsail has little effect, hence the explosion of self tacking jibs on new boats. The masthead rig in a Catalina 25 is headsail driven and a smaller sail will have a large impact on the performance of the boat, we are a long way from being an over canvased boat and often need all we can throw up. On my lake we sail in high wind a lot and the big gennys stay out to 15 knots in order to sail to the boat's numbers.
I appologize to the old guard who have heard this many times before...
I single hand a lot and did not want a 150n on my boat, I sail in high wind a lot and did not want to be over powered by a deep pocket, (or have a nasty roll on the reefed sail), on the few light air days we have I wanted cloth as high as possible. I had Gary Swenson at Ullman Ventura build me a custom 135 with the intent that I will reef the main before reefing the headsail. The 135 is full hoist like a 150, flat and of heavy cloth like a 110, and has a low clew. It has great sail area with minimal overlap to improve handling, It has great sail shape and I do not worry about blowing in out in a blow. I think it is a great sail for me.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2007 : 12:05:47

Maybe not so much difference upwind in moderate breezy conditions, but the 150 or 155 makes a huge difference downwind in light to medium air.

135 is the best all around head sail, without question.

When it is really windy you can stand up to a lot of air with a 110 and single reefed main.

Edited by - on

PZell
Admiral

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USA
548 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2007 : 12:38:54

There are some good points in the article. But, notice he talking big boat where everything is so much bigger and tougher to handle. I'm a qualified geezer I guess but don't feel like it so I have hank ons. Regarding sail size, it really depends on the venue and your type of sailing. Here on breezy SFBay I had a 115% jib made which as mentioned above is the real working sail and a reef usually satisfies being overpowered. For the light days I have a range of larger sails and for the honking days I have a 100% and a 90% reefable blade. I single hand almost all the time so that keeps me busy..it's all part of the fun and excitement of it.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2007 : 15:09:18

I have an old 150 and several decrepit 100's. I credit the 150 with my first place finish in last year's race series. But, its generally too much sail for our windy lake and is definitely not a sail I'd use single handing.
I'm going to order a new head sail for delivery next spring and have been weighing the pros and cons of 110 vs 135 (hank-on)
I had not considered a low clew - and had thought that having a high tack and foot would make it easier to single hand. I currently use my best 100 (I think its referred to as high-footed, as there is a lot of clearance between deck and foot) most of the time because it is so easy to sail - and because we have a gusty - windy lake. Probably very much like Kansas.
Any thoughts?

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2007 : 18:30:26

At issue in this question is ease of single handing and it might be that precludes consideration of a light air sail (drifter/reacher or asymmetrical), but the question also deals with trying to find optimum performance. Also related was that the 110 is worn and needs replaced.

My comments are really directed towards the reader of this post who's 110 isn't needing replaced because it is worn out.

Simply put, I think it makes better sense to add a light air sail than replace the 110 with a 135 if the single hander has an auto pilot and would like more optimal light air performance than will be obtained with the 135 and is willing to hand the sail.

This opinion is relative to the C250 and I'd remind that the C25 and C250 have some differences. One is that the C250 only has a two knot window of degraded performance between a 110 and a light air sail whereas the C25 likely has seven or more knots, and needs a larger than 110 to fill that window.

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2009 : 00:23:50

I stubmbled upon this thread searching for a debate between 135% and 150% headsails. The time is here that I need to place an order to National Sail Supply but would like the opinion of experienced people to help me make my decision (especialy ones with a boat like mine a C250WB). Here are my parameters:

- 1999, C250 WB, Centerboard with shrouds mounted completely at the edge, roller furler.
- Currently have a 110 in very good condition.
- Purpose is mostly for racing.
- Average wind speed on Wednesday race nights is 5-10 knots.
- HD Whisker pole 7-15 feet, with padeye mounted on track.
- Our races are almost NEVER Olympic courses, but rather a 2 buoy upwind start, then straight downwind.

Considerations:`
- My boat sails faster when flat. A 150% will generate more power, but if it induces more heeling will this negate the gain when compared to a 135%?
- Which would perform better going upwind in light air (5-10 knots), a 150% or a 135%?
- If the winds pick up I can always switch to my 110.
- I will buy a Symetrical spin next year (2010), so really what I need is a sail that will give me good upwind performance.
- Would be nice to get the 150% when going downwind with my whisker pole this year, but since I will have an Sym Spin next year is it really worth not waiting?

So if we think 2 years ahead, which setup would you prefer?
1. 110, 150, Sym Spin
2. 110, 135, Sym Spin

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 03/26/2009 00:25:36

KD4AO
Navigator

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USA
202 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2009 : 09:21:14

I am probably considered a geezer but I still would like a 135 or 150 or a drifter (light air sail) because the usual wind condition here on Charlotte Harbor in the summer is 0 to 5 knots and generally you have a difficult time generating enough speed to even feel a breeze. I would think a 135 or 150 of 4.5 oz material would work and could be reefed (rolled in) if the wind gets to strong to handle.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2009 : 09:22:02

John started this, and has a C-250 WK... Responses came from C-25s, standard and tall, which I would suggest are irrelevant. The C-25 is a very different boat in terms of rig, ballast, and sailing characteristics--in part because of the mast position that, as Frank notes, makes it a headsail-driven rig. The C-250 WK is known to be stiffer than the WB, and I believe most have inboard shrouds, so sailing to weather, it's different, too.

Steve, I think your particular answer should come from C-250 WB sailors only (like Arlyn), or maybe from Gerry Douglas at Catalina.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 03/26/2009 09:24:27

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5896 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2009 : 10:21:48

Sails are designed so that their size, shape, and the weight of their sailcloth work optimally within a given range of wind speeds. The big time racers have a sail for every wind speed. We average sailors can't justify that much expense, so we try to select 1-3 sails that cover the widest range of wind speeds reasonably well. There are different ways of covering the needed range of wind speeds. On my C&C 35, I have a 140% roller furling genoa for most sailing. For reaching in light air, I use a cruising chute. A 150 would cover that range (reaching in lighter air) fairly well, but I think a cruising chute covers it better. I could point a little higher with a 150, but can foot a lot faster with the cruising chute. For serious downwind work, I have a light air symmetrical spinnaker.

Also, the way you rig your boat can give you more options. My friend has a roller furler on his boat. He rigged a second headstay just aft of the furler, and just bought a new laminated racing genoa. For racing, he can use the furling dacron jib for cruising and for racing in higher winds, and in lighter air he can hank the big laminated genoa onto the second headstay. It gives him more options about how he can make the best use of his limited sails over a wide range of wind speeds.

My point is, most of us sail most of the time in a range of wind speeds from 0-25 kts. You aren't limited to a choice between a 135 and a 150. There are other ways you can cover that range of wind speeds, depending on how you use your boat, and the way your boat likes to sail. Keep your thinking open to some of the other options.

Also, keep in mind that sails don't have to cost an arm and a leg. My symmetrical spinnaker is an older one, but it's in nearly perfect condition, with no stains, no snags, and no patches, and it only cost $200. on ebay. If you're willing to spend some time looking, you can fill in some of your sail needs very inexpensively.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 03/26/2009 10:36:59

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2009 : 10:28:14

We have a 250 WK TR, and in our venue of Puget Sound, thus far we've found the 110 to be more than enough sail. So much so that we've bought a 70 for when the wind pipes up. We have several other sails that we've never even had out of the bag, a 135, 150, 170, & spinnaker. With the tall rig you almost have to sail the boat like a dinghy, main & jib sheets in one hand, tiller in the other ready for instant changes. With a single reef in the main and the 110, I can easily hit hull speed in less than 10kts. In fact at about 10kts on just the 110 alone I can hit hull speed on a beam reach. This makes for a very nice sail w/o the heeling that terrifies Rita.

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2009 : 14:09:57

David, would your sails fit on my WB? If so, would you consider selling me one of your headsails and even the spinnaker if you never use them?

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2009 : 14:34:50

Dave Bristle said just about what I was going to say. The issue is different for 25's and the 250's. I recall other threads on this subject where several 250 skippers have expressed opinions that a 150 is too much for the 250 in almost all but very light air conditions.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2009 : 14:35:31

Steve, he has a tall rig. The luff will likely be too long for our boats.

Just for the record, since I started this thread a couple of years ago, I bought a 135% from National Sail.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2009 : 15:06:15

Tell you what I think would be a great geezer setup - and I'm fast approaching geezerness - is a 100% with furler and a self-tacking setup for the headsail. Not ready to go there yet but for us it is more important that sailing be easy and fun. We don't race.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 03/26/2009 15:08:17

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2009 : 15:10:05

The more I think about it, a 135% with an Asym Spin is probably the best combo for our boats. As it has been said before I don't want to buy 4 different sails for every wind condition. I think a 135% would do 95% of the time, then when it's really gusty I can change it back to my 110. Last year when racing I was keeping up most of the time with my 110% but I really needed to pay lots of attention to trimming and pointing. It was clear back then that a larger headsail would give me the extra 10% that I seemed to be lacking on the power side when comparing me to other boats.

John, I know this is a difficult question to answer, but from your opinion how much faster do you think I can gain going from a 110 to a 135? 0.5-1 knot I'm thinking.

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 03/26/2009 15:11:28

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2009 : 15:21:41

Steve,
As John said we've got a tall rig, so it's unlikely they'd fit your boat. However, other than the spinnaker which I don't want to sell (just bought the pole for it), which one would you be interested in? I can run a tape up the luff & measure it for you.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2009 : 15:28:52

Since I don't race, I'm probably not very well equipped to answer that Steve. I think the gain is really in increased performance in lighter wind. You can achieve hull speed with a 110% in the right conditions. I really think that this is a case of "It's not the sail it's the sailor"

I too think that the 135% plus an asym is the right combination. I want the ultra-light asym for those ultra-light wind days. If it ever makes it to the top of the wish list, I just might get one. It's currently 3rd behind a bimini(this year) and an auto-tiller.

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2009 : 17:35:37

Finally ordered my 135% from National Sails Supply today. I chose the Sunbrella foot and leach UV protection. The standard (non-deluxe) is a Dacron UV protection. Should this make any difference in performance?

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2009 : 21:27:07

Yeah, it'll make a big difference. It'll look cooler than the white one.

I think the sunbrella might be a little heavier than the dacron.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2009 : 21:42:06

I've been told that Dacron sailcloth tends to stretch more than Sunbrella canvas, so when the sail stretches, the sun strips don't, causing "cupping" of the sail at the leach and foot. That will spoil the flow off the leach. I'm not sure that an extra layer of UV-treated Dacron won't have somewhat the same effect--two layers will stretch less than one. But that's the knock on Sunbrella for furling headsails.

Edited by - on

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The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.