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New mains'l: standard main on tall rig?

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Randall
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123 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/31/2002 : 20:49:18

I want to replace the original main on my boat (sail #1459). Can I put a regular main on a tall rig & raise the boom up enough to put a decent sized bimini under it?
How much difference would it really make in hullspeed? Is it significant enough to consider a standard for cruising and a tall main for racing? Would the higher boom affect "the slot" so that the jib would need recutting? Would the boat become excessively tender?

My wife and daughter are flying in from Texas this weekend and are meeting me at the boat. This will be their first chance to see it, and we will be able to decide whether it is really "our boat", or whether it needs a For Sale sign on it. I've already spent a grand at BoatUS buying stuff to get it rigged up for our needs. I sure could have used a couple more weeks to get it all installed!

My wife asked why I was spending so much money on a boat that we may not even keep. I told her that boats (sail, not stinkpots) are living things with unique personalities, like horses. Just 'cause you don't like a horse & want to get rid of it doesn't mean you stop feeding and exercising it! You have to keep caring for it and try to make it stronger & better for having been in your life. I'm not sure she fully understands.

Randall

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/31/2002 : 21:21:33

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
...I'm not sure she fully understands.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
Randall... I'w worried about whether YOU understand. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> Every boat has ideosynchrasies that take a new owner some time to get used to, find ways around, or change to his/her liking. Coming from a daysailer, I'm not fully "in synch" with our C-25, but I'm getting there, and I'm excited about making some changes as well as getting used to its characteristics. (I'm used to being a significant part of the ballast.) No boat, including the hyperexpensive custom-built, fits its owner like a glove the first (or second) time out. We all need to negotiate between changes to our expectations and changes to the boat. The less we spend, the more we'll likely have to negotiate with the boat.

Now, about the boom... A standard-rig sail will raise it two feet, which may be a bit much. I'd worry about how close the gooseneck will be to the mast gate, for one thing. The technicalities of the "slot" would only be an issue if you're racing, in which case you'll need the tall sail to live up to your PHRF rating or be competitive in a one-design fleet.

Somebody recently posted that they'd purchased a used Ranger 26 main, if my memory's working, and that it raised the boom just about the right amount while not losing too much area--the foot is longer. (Obviously, the C-25 boom can accommodate that.) The discussion is in the thread at http://www.catalina25-250.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1607. If you don't plan to race, you could have the main re-cut a foot shorter. If you (or the next owner) decide you really want to race after all, a new main might be in order anyway. For racing purposes, they lose their shapes eventually.

Hang in there... It's a fun journey if you give it a chance.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette "Passage" in SW CT

<img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle> I stand corrected--the standard sail will raise the boom THREE feet--probably creating issues with the mast gate and backstay.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 08/01/2002 10:39:03

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Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 07/31/2002 : 21:49:02

Save your money: If you have a tall rig and want to cruise and raise the boom then put in the first reef. You can raise the boom the diference it leaves. Since the boom is not solidly attached you can raise it just the amount you need. When you race your going to want the whole sail working. Yep the tall rigs are faster/ go figure more sail area has to do something for you.

Doug&Ruth
Wind Lass
Tacoma Wa.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/31/2002 : 22:05:40

Rereading your questions, I have two more responses:

- Hull speed is a function of the hull alone--the fastest it can go unless it starts to plane. Then there's just plain speed (generally up to hull speed)... Less sail will produce less speed except when the wind is up, in which case less sail can produce more speed by keeping the hull and sails upright.

- Raising the boom won't make the boat more tender--it will raise the "center of effort" somewhat, but with a smaller sail, the "effort" is lower.

If your main is sound, you could look into having it re-cut or finding a used sail before rushing to have a new, non-standard sail made. If you like it, then you can consider investing in a better one later on. An original main is not much of an asset to a perspective buyer who wants to race, and the low boom isn't that attractive to one who wants to cruise.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette "Passage" in SW CT

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Randall
Navigator

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123 Posts

Response Posted - 07/31/2002 : 22:12:12

Actually, most of my spending has been for creature comforts I'd want on any boat-- new stereo & speakers, new VHF, SOSpenders for all three of us, etc. Catalina-specific items thus far are simple, like a new tiller & tiller-tamer.

I envision only raising the boom to standard rig height (a foot?), not as far as possible, although two feet would be great for bimini clearance! The original main has already been patched back together twice by previous owners, so I want to upgrade before I have problems. I'm not a racer, but I don't want to hobble the boat either. This is the fastest boat I've owned to date, and don't want to give up anything in performance. If a tall-rig is significantly faster, I'll stay with it, and install an adjustable topping lift and a tall, folding bimini for life at anchor.

Any suggestions on sources for high quality, reasonably priced sails? Do I want full battens, a two plus two sail, or regular?

Randall

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Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 07/31/2002 : 22:22:16

Why don't you spend a couple months actually sailing the boat before you spend any more money on her, or decide to sell her?

Brooke

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Mike Vaccaro
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 08/01/2002 : 05:53:27

Randall,

All the folks that have replied have valid points. It is possible to raise the boom, but the luff of a standard main vs. a tall rig is about 3 feet shorter. Flying a standard sized main at full hoist would raise the boom 3 feet. This will not only raise the center of effort considerably, but will also cause the boom to interfere with the backstay.

If you raise the boom, you'll raise it to a point where the gooseneck is in the kerf slot (this is the widened portion of the kerf, or slot on the mast, into which you slip the sail slugs/bolt rope). You can't "fly" the boom at this height, but you can fly it above or below this height. If you hoist the main, and put maximum tension on the luff, you'll find out out where this "no-man's land" is (it should start about 15" above your current foot position, and I believe that the dimension of the goosneck casting is about 4", so there is a range between about 14-20" or so you should avoid. Another thing to consider is that any time you measure, you'd best measure at no luff tension and maximum luff tension, as the luff will stretch quite a bit (this allows for adjustment of the "draft" of the sail through the use of a Cunningham, or in the case of the Catalina 25 and adjustable gooseneck with a downhaul attached. Don't assume that a set of mast slot plates (designed to keep the slugs in the kerf to assist with reefing/dousing) will hold the gooseneck in place--this little aluminum casting (the gooseneck) is under considerable stress with the rig is loaded! Whatever your final luff dimensions are, they can not allow the gooseneck to rest in this area.

If you raise the boom above the kerf slot, you'll probably have to shorten it as well. The boom must be able to clear the backstay in a "worst case" scenario--a flying gibe with the boom rising as it passes overhead. If you raise your boom without a sail on it and support the gooseneck at the mast, you can lift it up (with an adjustable topping lift, or just simply by hoisting it up) and swing it across to determine if you have any interference problems. If your boom was to strike your backstay in a violent, uncontrolled manner, you may find that you loose your rig. Based on emperical evidence with our boat, we had to shorten the boom to fly it above the kerf slot with a stortened main (for use with a bimini). To fly the boom at this height, you have three options: 1) Have your main shortened (recommend you remove the luff from the TOP to minimize reduction in area)--your leech may overlap the backstay slightly, but this won't cause any problems save for some extra wear and tear on the leech; 2) Have a sail custom made for your new luff and leech dimensions; or 3) By an appropriately sized sail new or used from a loft (for example the Ranger 25 main previously mentioned)--after you've got your measuring done (and don't forget to run a tape up the halyard to double check!), you can start looking for a sail that will fit.

It's probably a safe bet that you could shorten your sail a foot, raise the boom BELOW the kerf slot and have the same clearance dimensions in the cockpit that you'd have in a standard rig without a lot of fuss. This much of an increase probably won't require you to shorten the boom (but I still recommend that you measure and experiement to ensure that you don't have any surprises when you're sailing). Now you can install a taller bimini, although probably not one tall enough to stand under. Try to take a look at some other boats before you start cutting metal or dacron! This will help you visualize the geometry a bit. Just be careful of the domino effect...

If you look down a couple of posts, you'll see that we were discussing this same modification just a few days ago, perhaps this will help you out.

Best of Luck,

Mike Vaccaro on the "Swoose"
84 TR/SK #4707

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 08/01/2002 : 08:31:35

Randall,

I have a really beat up, original Standard main that I will unload for 75 bucks. That way you can see if a standard main will work for what you want...

Let me know
dw

Duane Wolff
"The Flying Wasp"
C-25, #401 std,sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b1ce23b3127cce9b043565af3d0000004010" border=0>

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Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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USA
769 Posts

Response Posted - 08/01/2002 : 08:58:33

Hey Randall,

The comments already posted are good ones. Here are a couple of additional ideas:

As far as the tall rig being significantly faster, it is generally in light breezes. But as soon as you get into the teens for wind speed that advantage goes away as you will want to tuck in a first reef sooner than a standard rig boat does. BTW, the first reef on the tall rig shortens the sail area to about that of a std rig.

If your mainsail is in relatively good shape, you might have a local sailmaker add a pair "short reef" points on your sail about 1.5 feet up from the foot. A cringle on both luff and leech should be all you need. With the short reef points, you can lift the boom a foot and a half and get your bimini to work too.

If you want to buy a new sail.....or look for a used one that fits well with your shorter luff requirements, think about getting a mainsail for a Capri 25. The luff is just a bit more than 2 feet less than a tall rig C25 and the foot is the same. Maybe there's a Capri 25 racer around who has an old mainsail he's not using.

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

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John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 08/01/2002 : 16:26:04

I don't know where the mast gate is on a tall rig as compared to a standard rig, but, if you get a standard main, nothing says you have to raise it all the way to the masthead. Just raise it enough to fit the bimini under. Then you avoid all the boom/backstay problems.

John Mason - Ali Paroosa
1982 - FK/SR #3290

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