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home made tiller

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MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/19/2007 : 11:13:11

The tiller on my boat is not the original, and I have reparied it a couple of times. I'd like a new one and want to try and make my own. Has anyone done that, if so do you have a drawing of the curve. I was just going to take mine and draw it out with a bit more of a sweep up. The one I have has a rise of about 1 inch, I think the length is good, my wife complaines about it being too long in the cockpit, but I think it just needs to sweep up a little more to clear our knees. I think about a 6" rise would be good. Any opinions about this? When, my wife would ay don't hold your breath here, I get started I'll try to remember to take some photos too.

Matt/Brigitte Loeffler
E.C. Rider 5411
Cat 25 86'
FK/SR _/)

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 09/19/2007 : 12:20:10

Matt, I made a tiller out of mahogany, and never had to deal with a delaminated tiller again. I used the old tiller to trace the curve, but I made my tiller a skosh thicker, because I felt it needed the extra strength, to compensate for the fact that solid wood is generally not as strong as laminated wood. Also, I carefully selected the lumber that I used, so that the grain curved at the place where the tiller would be curved the most. If you don't, the curved place will be weak. IMHO, it was a fairly easy project that was well worth doing.

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ilnadi
Captain

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452 Posts

Response Posted - 09/19/2007 : 13:59:10

food for thought: (As I am looking at making a shorder tiller) why are tilers curved?

Is there a real reason other than aesthetics? making a straight tiller (angled to end up where you want your hand to be) will get you out of dealing with wood grain, etc)

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 09/19/2007 : 16:24:47

I suspect comfort has something to do with it. If the tiller is angled up, it might not be as comfortable over a period of time. I'm speculating, because I've never tried such a tiller.

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 09/19/2007 : 16:53:26

Matt,
For a prototype of your upswept tiller, you could simply laminate one out of several thicknesses of plywood that you've cut to the shape you like. If that one doesn't work out, you'll have plenty of plywood left over from a single sheet to make several more prototypes till both of you are satisfied with it's length & height.

Once you've done that, it's not too difficult to laminate something together, as long as you've got the tools to make the laminations. I use my table saw to make about 1/8th inch thick strips. Cut them over long and over wide. They need to be longer because they're going to slide over each other as you glue them up. They also need to be overwide so you can plane them to the proper thickness. You can use the left over pieces of plywood to make the bending jig. I use 3/4" pegs on a 4x6 table that I've got a million holes drilled into to do mine. While I haven't made a tiller yet, I have made the knees for dinghies and other laminations. It's a bit intimidating knowing that your glue is going to set up in just a few minutes, but do a dry run, get all your clamps set up (you'll need LOTS of clamps), everything you don't want coated with epoxy, covered with wax paper, and go.

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 09/19/2007 : 17:02:21

Matt, I cut 6" off my tiller as I was always hitting the genoa trimmer in the butt as we tacked. It has not affected performance one iota.

BTW - making a new one seems like a lot of work for around $60.00!

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MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 09/19/2007 : 21:59:06

To answer ilnaldi, the tiller I have now is straight, and it is a pain. To keep from hitting my knees I have to hold the tiller elevated, this causes it to have less of a bite on the rudder head. I don't know if this is a problem, but to me just doesn't seem right.
Thanks for all the tips on building the tiller. I haven't lamanated anything yet and see this as a great strating project. I have tried to do a little steam bending. Just playing around with a tea kettle and some thin stock, kind of fun.
Another question I have is wood type. I have some alder avalaible, was going to do a search for some ash but ran out of time today. Would this wood be strong enough. Think I'll do a search on various wood strentghs and get a clue from that too.
Thanks again.

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 09/20/2007 : 08:57:17

Matt,
You don't want to use alder, it'll rot in your hands in a marine environment. My first choices would be teak or ipe (ironwood), but both are tough on tools and relatively expensive. I've taken the temper out of lathe knives with ipe, you have to keep your tools really sharp, and sharpen them frequently. Next choices would probably be oak or hickory, and ash would be good choice as well although I've never worked with it. Osage orange or yew would both be good. Osage in particular would age to a very pretty dull orange color over time and is tough as nails. It splits easily though, so not so sure how well it'd laminate, I've never tried it. I usually make mallets out of it on my lathe. My brothers make bows out of both osage & yew, they're both very springy, something that seems like a good thing to have in a rudder (in small amounts).

Wow, ask what time it is & learn how to build a clock, huh?

My short recommendation would be to use oak. It's readily available, easy to work, takes a stain well if you're so inclined, and strong. I've started using Cetol for my finishes on boat stuff. Follow the instructions and you should get a pretty durable finish.

Feel free to ask any questions you've got. When you're ready to do the laminations I can give you specifics about the process, what to use, etc.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 09/20/2007 : 14:58:17

I bought an H&L Marine Woodwork C25 replacement tiller made of laminated mahogany and ash from West Marine about 6 years ago and it still looks like new. A stock C25 tiller bought directly from them is $59.98 (plus s/h). [url="http://www.pyacht.net"]Pyacht[/url] sells both replacement and custom H&L tillers.

H&L Marine Woodwork (323) 636-1718

Hmmm...Pyacht links don't appear to work.

Edited by - dlucier on 09/21/2007 07:48:30

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 09/20/2007 : 16:54:15

Don,
Your links didn't work for me, here's the link for the [url="http://www.pyacht.net/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/cgi-bin/pagegen.pl?U+scstore+pcfb7654ffdb88db+pr+hl112F"]Catalina 25 tillers[/url].

While I like making my own stuff, for $70 I'd be sorely tempted to let someone else do it for me.

Edited by - on

MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 09/20/2007 : 18:40:12

Dave, thanks for the wood advice, looks good to me. I'll do a search for some of them adn see what is avaliable. Yes I know it would be easier to buy a ready made tiller, but the satisfaction of making my own is on the list too.
Matt

Edited by - on

ilnadi
Captain

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452 Posts

Response Posted - 09/20/2007 : 20:46:03

My woodworking book lists these woods for marine use:
white elm (workability good)
Mahogany (workability good)
oak (workability good)
rosewood (workability medium)
teak (of course)
utile (whatever that is)
and a few softwoods, if you want to laminate
yellow cedar
larch (made famous by Monthy Python)
sitka spruce (resommended for oars, should be good for tiller too)

Edited by - on

MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 09/20/2007 : 23:15:04

I think utile is one of those mahogany substitues that are all over the place now.
I ordered 4 bf of ash, and 3 of african mahogany this afternoon. Will keep you posted as the tiller takes shape.

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bbriner
Captain

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349 Posts

Response Posted - 09/21/2007 : 11:49:35

Matt - while you are at it, make two. It's nice to have a spare in case one breaks. Believe me, it is absolutely NO FUN to be out there with no means to steer.

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MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 09/21/2007 : 18:36:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">while you are at it, make two. It's nice to have a spare in case one breaks. Believe me, it is absolutely NO FUN to be out there with no means to steer.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

sounds like you were behind the

at one time.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/22/2007 : 15:34:44

If you make it out of one piece, I'd try to follow Steve's approach of finding a piece of wood with grain that follows the curve you want. If you cut that curve in a piece with a straight grain, the grain will cut across the tiller at a point of significant stress, making it too easy to break (especially by somebody leaning on it). Steam bending two curves will be quite a job with a piece that short and thick--especially oak. Those are the reasons the manufacturers use laminations.

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John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 09/22/2007 : 18:23:20

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by bbriner
 Matt - while you are at it, make two. It's nice to have a spare in case one breaks. Believe me, it is absolutely NO FUN to be out there with no means to steer.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You could just make it "double wide" and the saw it in half giving you 2 tillers.

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MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 09/26/2007 : 00:05:35

Good idea John. By the way while waiting for my order of ash and mahogany to arrive I decided to take all the wood off the top for a fresh coat of varnish. The two compaionway boards, that hold the hatch boards in place, are both cracked at the top so I decided to try and make new ones of those too. Actually the right hand one has been missing the part that holds the boards in for a few years. A few weeks a go I ran into an old friend who has been building a boat. He has a buddy that works for a company that makes teak swim platforms for motor boats and gives him cut offs, some are really full size boards. He told me anytime I need some teak to give him a call. Went to his place today, does he ever have a stock pile of teak, SCORE, I should have just held off on the ash and mahogany and used this stuff. To make the part for the boat I had to glue up some of these pieces. Got them glued and clamped this evening and will work on them tomorrow.

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MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2007 : 23:14:26

Started milling my wood today, the boards are a little shorter than I'd like, but then maybe that will make the tiller an inch or so less intrusive.
I ripped the boards to about a half inch wider than the existing tiller then split those boards down the middle, more or less. Next step will be to get out the thickness plainer and get them all the same size. I measured the thickness of the original laminations and they look to be 1/4 inch, think I'll make mine a triffle thiner to help cut down on the possibility of cracking. I did cut some extras for just in case. Perhaps I should make up a little steam box too. What do you think?

Edited by - MattL on 10/02/2007 23:24:39

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2007 : 09:20:32

Matt,
I tried to respond to your email, but it bounced saying no such mailbox, so here's my long winded response:

Matt,
While I'm a huge fan of Gorilla glue, I'm not sure I'd want to use it for either marine use or laminations. My recommendation would be to use two part epoxy with a thickening agent. I'm most familiar with West System, but I have a friend (who first turned me on to West System) who now swears by System 3. All of my laminations have been using West System with...can't think of the thickening agent, Ill look it up and get back to you. All of this is available from WM, and West Systems (I sound like an ad, huh?) has a pretty good site with lots of information about how to use their glues & thickening agents. The agent you want is designed for laminations and will turn the epoxy sort of a beige color.

As far as your clamping jig, I think 3/4" ply will be sufficient as long as your turning points are very well attached. When you put together your lamination stack, make a mark across all of the edges at the center of the stack that will be right side up, then use that to line them up as you glue them. Make sure your epoxy "pot" is very shallow. If the epoxy is allowed to sit in a deep tray like a disposable "baby loaf" baking tin, it will "kick" much faster, and you might not have enough time to get all the laminations glued up. I used the baby loaf thing the first time with a 4" roller, that didn't work so well, and I was really-really rushed to get the glue up done before the glue was unusable. Basically the cooler the glue stays, the longer it remains workable. In my local supermarket, there are really shallow, circular aluminum foil trays. They're maybe 1/2" deep or so that are perfect for this. I've actually thought about cooling the epoxy in the fridge before using it, or setting the tray in an ice bath. Both would give you more working time. A roller works OK for slopping the glue on, but I've found that a popsicle stick works just as well, and you don't get glue all over your hands as much. Make sure to wear gloves, you WILL get epoxy on your hands.

Before you mix your glue, do at least one full blown practice clamp up so you get your clamps set to the right width, and you see how to line up the centerlines as you go. This will also point out any faults in your bending jig so you can correct them before you proceed. You'll need roughly twice the number of clamps that you think you will.

Cover everything you don't want stuck together with waxed paper, including the heads of your clamps if they're not plastic. I just wrap the heads with a bit of wax paper & rubber band them on.

Use bits of cutoffs under your clamp pads to spread the clamping pressure otherwise you might make dents in your lamination.

Make your lamination wider than your final width so you can plane off the squeezed out glue. I recommend that you remove the excess with a belt sander, the epoxy will be hard enough to chip a high speed planer blade if it hits a glob of it. Once you're down close to a level surface, you can start running it through your planer taking of small bits till you get a single plane going, then you can take off larger thicknesses.

Good luck, and take lots of pictures, I'm looking forward to seeing how this turns out. I know I've got one of these in my future, my tiller is starting to show it's age.

PS: If you want to try steam bending, check out Lee Valley's site, they have a pretty good article on the process, and they sell some tools that'd be very useful. However, if you're doing laminations, you shouldn't need to do steam bending as well.

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MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2007 : 13:09:09

David,
Thanks for the advice. I'll look for some of those shallow dishes. Didn't think of marking the center lines, but it makes sense, I was leaning toward using epoxy anyway too.
I can't find the digital camera so I'll have to get out the old film camera and get some photos going.
Matt

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