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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

Is the MK II forward or regressive

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Initially Posted - 10/06/2007 : 09:32:17

I posted most of this in another thread and then realized it needed a thread of its own.

As to to the forward hatch change from a non skid walkable hatch cover to a Bomar lighted hatch... I can't imagine it is to provide more light, as there is certainly no lighting issues within the 250 that would justify the problems and safety issues the hatch will bring when handling ground tackle.

From a practical view, I can't imagine the reasoning behind this change. The only area from which to reasonably and safely manage ground tackle is from a position on top of the forward non skid surfaced hatch.

It has to be something else, perhaps a solution to the nagging rain gutter problem but more likely something else, but what?

My current guess is that Catalina simply wanted after thirteen years to produce a MKII model. This is a long standing sales tactic and sometimes gimmick to make buying new look more attractive than buying from used inventory.

I saw the C22 MKII as a meaningful sales tactic because the new buyer got a better boat for his willingness to buy new. I see the C250 MKII as a sales gimmick because the new buyer is not getting a better boat, more probably one not as good.

I'm a bit cynical about this MKII offering in part because of comparison to the MKII C22 changes. Those changes were much more practical and yielded the buyer a distinctly improved boat, rather than one just having cosmetic changes, but that may be just me, I'm a practical kind of guy.

To argue my theory, the side windows were changed but were there any practical reasons for doing so... no. Was there a practical reason for changing the forward hatch... I doubt it and more than that think the decision was practically regressive.

Part of the cynicism is likely because over the years, there have been some practical issues that have clearly been identified but got only cosmetic changes as to appear that these long standing issues had received attention in the new MKII.

One of those is the cabin table. The MKII again makes a cosmetic change where the problem has always been defined as a practical issue.

Another is the rigging, again some cosmetic spar changes that do nothing to deal with the practical changes that have long been needed to the rigging.

I hope my cynicism will be found errant by more information about the MKII changes, but as it stands now the MKII is a sales gimmick offering cosmetic changes of no practical value. Further... because of the forward hatch change, the MkII is a regressive model in practical terms thus making the previous model and used inventory more desirable, exactly the opposite effect that Catalina likely desired.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224

N/E Texas and Great Lakes
Arlyn's Sailing Site

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 10/06/2007 09:43:39

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 10/06/2007 : 11:15:20

Sounds like an appearance change. Personally I have always liked hatches that would let light through although I agree that the C250 does not suffer from light deprivation. I am also a big fan of ventilation (no pun intended!) so opening portlights are a plus for me. As for the table my guess is that the new boat buyer thinks "what a nice big table" instead of "that thing is in the way" as we have all learned! So, until we hear more my sense is that you are right, this is mostly a cosmetic upgrade. If I were Catalina I would have:

Changed the table to a folding one.
Found a better cooler solution.
Gone to a backstay that is not in the way.
Made the outboard well wider.
Moved the stairs right up to the head wall to improve access to the aft berth.
Included a helmsman seat for wheel steering models.
Changed the shape of the V-berth cushions to improve access to the V-berth storage.
Supplied 300lbs of crushed rock bagged in the V-berth to level the boat out.

Other changes??

Edited by - on

jlannutti
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102 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2007 : 11:24:23

I saw the new 250 at Annapolis yesterday. It was disappointing. Not that it isn't as good at the old moder but I expected something better than the old model. he change in the windows was, I believe, done to give it a more classic look. That isn't really a bad thing. The table is improved over my 1998 model in that it has a better, i.e. more stable, base. There really was not much in the way of change to the eye. The gentleman who was on board to answer questions knew nothing about the 250 and little about sailboats in general. BTW the larger Catalinas are gorgeous!

Edited by - on

mhartong
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USA
152 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2007 : 11:29:58

I certainly agree, the larger Catalina's are very very nice. But WOW on the prices.
With the C270 out of the line-up, that leaves the C28 the next bigger model. One can buy 2 base C250' s with change to spare for the price of a new base C28. Even Persephone, with her diesel and fully tricked out, leaves enough change to buy a new C22 Mk II nicely equipped with change.

Unless I win a lottery, Persephone need not worry about 2 foot-its for a long time

Edited by - mhartong on 10/06/2007 11:51:46

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2007 : 12:36:32

I'd missed that two opening port windows were traded for side windows. I agree that they might provide some needed cross ventilation to a slipped boat and therefore offer some practical value.

Ventilation in the forward cabin area is not something however that has been complained about on the forum at least. If they had added ventilation to the aft berth that has been complained about a lot... it would be worth hooting about.

Edited by - on

Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

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1913 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2007 : 15:54:17

I've been hunting for pictures of the new 250 for a while, the only ones I have been able to find are [url="http://www.gisails.com/boats/catalina/sport/250wing/"]here.[/url]

I wonder if Catalina consulted with any 250 owners before they made the changes? It seems to me that they would ask a few owners what works and what don't. A simple post on our forum would have given them lots of ideas to ponder.

As Randy pointed out, I think they missed the boat to make some changes that would have mattered. Sure opening ports are nice, only I think they should have installed them in the aft berth where they are needed. I can't believe they did nothing with the table. I bet if you poll 250 owners more than 70% of them have made some type of table change, or have taken it off the boat entirely.

As Arlyn pointed out, the forward hatch is going to be interesting to say the least, even if the lexan is strong enough to support the weight of someone standing on it. Once a wet anchor rode had dripped on it, its gonna be slick as he#l. I wish the pictures I found had one of the hatch. I might be way off base with the hatch issue, and I hope I am.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2007 : 17:51:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by jlannutti
 The change in the windows was, I believe, done to give it a more classic look.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">To my eye, they are less classic--more Euro. Catalina appears to be going that way on all new models to "keep up with Hunter."

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 10/06/2007 : 20:07:52

Tom, thanks for the link. I like the fact that they finally divided the V-berth storage cover lengthwise instead of widthwise. That makes it easier to access the storage. I don't think I like that they moved the cooktop to where the counter used to be. I wonder if that impacted the drawers?

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Tom Potter
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Response Posted - 10/06/2007 : 20:48:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 Tom, thanks for the link. I like the fact that they finally divided the V-berth storage cover lengthwise instead of widthwise. That makes it easier to access the storage. I don't think I like that they moved the cooktop to where the counter used to be. I wonder if that impacted the drawers?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

What drawers... they're gone.

Edited by - on

mhartong
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Response Posted - 10/06/2007 : 21:05:13

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by tompotterWhat drawers... they're gone.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I have one small one to the right of the stove unit. Big enough to hold some silverware, a bottle opener, and a wine bottle corkscrew, but not much else

Edited by - mhartong on 10/06/2007 21:08:30

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2007 : 22:36:18

Another thing that has been gone for a long time I think is the storage basket in the galley. The hatch to it was at the end of the starboard settee. I don't know why it was discontinued.

Edited by - on

britinusa
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Response Posted - 10/07/2007 : 09:12:26

Mark, we installed an additional drawer.

[url="http://ravenas.razorstream.com:80/eve-service/player.jspx?enc=ObKWlw6IqPCRCjwdeJ%2F8Aw%3D%3D&h=240&w=320"]click here to view[/url]

don't laugh too loudly!

paul

Edited by - on

zeil
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Canada
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Response Posted - 10/07/2007 : 10:48:19

This the area Arlyn refers to... we store our pots & pans just below the stove and access it from the starboard settee.

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Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 10/07/2007 : 11:28:05

Henk and Arlyn, is there a door to that storage area? I am imagining that the access is on the front of the settee and not the top, correct?

Edited by - on

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 10/07/2007 : 12:04:31

Here is an image of the the Velcro'd hatch cover... Yes... that's correct it is indeed a battery powered hand held vacuum cleaner on top of the cooler

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johnsonp
Admiral

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Response Posted - 10/07/2007 : 14:48:20

It looks to me that the leaking lazarettes were fix and a drain for the engine mount well has been added.
Thanks Catalina.... now that was a fantastic design change.

Keep up with the philosophy that you mention in your web site, we listen to our owners and Maintaining the sail plan, weight and underbody of the original model preserved the integrity of the class, so one-design 320 racing sailors can compete aboard the newly redesigned model. The 320 MkII model was influenced by over a decade of comments and input from experienced 320 owners.
paulj

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mhartong
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Response Posted - 10/07/2007 : 18:21:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by johnsonp
 It looks to me that the leaking lazarettes were fix and a drain for the engine mount well has been added.
Thanks Catalina.... now that was a fantastic design change.

Keep up with the philosophy that you mention in your web site, we listen to our owners and Maintaining the sail plan, weight and underbody of the original model preserved the integrity of the class, so one-design 320 racing sailors can compete aboard the newly redesigned model. The 320 MkII model was influenced by over a decade of comments and input from experienced 320 owners.
paulj
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Huh????

Edited by - on

bigelowp
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Response Posted - 10/07/2007 : 20:16:09

Hi All:

Interesting thread for a number of reasons. I own a 1980 Cat 25 -- that I became owner of under a bit of duress -- but have fallen in love with. When I look at the 250's the things I question is the keel weight to boat weight (e.g. no fin keel version) as well as the "flush deck" appearance (e.g. logistics complications) and finally the open layout that looks less efficient than the more traditional appearance/layout of the C-25. What evolved into my delving into the Cat-25 started with looking at a Coronado 25, which I liked but did not want to handle logistics of a flush deck - and I wanted new-ish if not new. I looked at a C-250 but thought that it was too tender and while flexible in design not as practicel. So, If I were going to come up with a 250-MKII I would 1.-- offer a fin keel version that provides a bit more keel weight (e.g. stability when it's blowing), 2. get away from the flush deck logistics issues, 3. move the steps, add opening hatches, improve the head access so to REALLY make the boat "user friendly" and finally, tweak the rigging for better single handling/short crew operation. I agree that Catalina should have consulted with current owners - but not just of the 250 also the 25. My bet is they are looking at Benetaeu and Hunter NOT talking to customers. Finally, what is needed is a progression yacht for all 25 and 250 owners -- Neither the 270 or 28 quite fit that niche - then again no one fits the niche. So, I guess that we owners of "classic" yachts will be keeping the used market pretty solid for years to come!

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Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 10/08/2007 : 08:45:38

Paul offers a good point, Catalina has endeavored over the years to maintain basic hull forms and rigging for racing reasons. The C22MKII had enough changes that it became contentious about class adherence. I don't know what the final outcome of that has been.

Most of you know that I've always maintained that the 250 centerboard and wing keel are not class compatible because of weight and sail plan variances. The centerboard being considerably heavier and having less canvas.

There is absolutely no doubt that it has been a reason for fewer centerboard boats at the nationals and this is unfortunate because it is no doubt the easiest of all the 25 footers to haul. I personally know of at least two instances where centerboard owners backed off going specifically because they were to be unfairly classed with the considerably lighter and more canvased wing keel.

I've also argued that the single greatest issue of the 250 is the adverse effect when heeling and that a likely simple solution exist in aft twin asymmetrical daggers. If they were designed by Catalina and available from Catalina as a bolt on item everyone had access to, I wouldn't see such a beneficial item to be a class breaker.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
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Response Posted - 10/08/2007 : 09:46:00

The new windows are a big improvement aesthetically.

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mhartong
Navigator

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USA
152 Posts

Response Posted - 10/08/2007 : 14:08:28

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by britinusa
 Mark, we installed an additional drawer.
[url="http://ravenas.razorstream.com:80/eve-service/player.jspx?enc=ObKWlw6IqPCRCjwdeJ%2F8Aw%3D%3D&h=240&w=320"]click here to view[/url]
don't laugh too loudly!
paul
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Slick, I'll put it on my list of things to do over the winter (list keeps getting longer).

While I like that the new stove has removed the tank, freeing up storage space in the cockpit locker, it does make things a bit tighter on storage in the galley as well as reduced counter space if trying to use the stove and prepare something that would benefit from additional counter space. A bit difficult to use the stove with the insert in place, though I do make use of the extra space on the over large stock table as a substitute.

Mark

Edited by - on

Bubba
Admiral

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Response Posted - 10/08/2007 : 18:44:27

Rather than fill up this thread with pictures of the MK II, I started a [url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16359"]new thread [/url] with pictures I took on the last day of the Annapolis Sailboat Show.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 10/08/2007 : 19:54:45

This is off the 250 subject, but I can tell you that the changes made for the C-22 MkII, while better as a family cruiser, simply destroyed it as a one-design boat for racing purposes. Nobody who wants to bring home a trophy races a MkII against the older, much lighter C-22's. Even my 1975 boat is almost too heavy. There is as much as a 500 lb weight difference in the old vs. newer hulls, based on weight done at regattas. Almost all of the hot shot racers have boats numbered under 1000, i.e. built in 1970-1972, or one of the brand new C-22 Sports, which cost 3x as much as one of the older hulls. Trouble is that the older ones are getting a lot harder to find.

Edited by - dmpilc on 10/08/2007 19:57:35

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 10/08/2007 : 20:00:20

Perhaps the changes in the C22 MKII and the C250 are indicative of the fact that many more people cruise than race. If that is the case, and I believe it is, then Catalina is doing what the market wants. Can't blame them for that.

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