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flying a spinnaker....

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goodone
1st Mate

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USA
48 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/04/2002 : 09:27:19

We recently purchased a spinnaker but now are having trouble figuring out just how to fly it.I have a roller furler on....could I use my now unused mast mounted jib halyard to hoist it? What about the 2 guys....where do I run them and to what? And poles....can I use my telescopic whisker pole or do I need something else? And if I use a chutescoop.....how do I run lines for IT? Seems REALLY confusing....don't want the front of the boat looking like I own stock in New England Ropes....HELP!

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Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2002 : 17:37:20

I think the best thing to do would be to go over to the manuals or parts section and have a look at the parts list and pictures. Try this link www://c25c250.best.vwh.net/resticted/p22.gif Yes you could use the jib halyard to hoist the spinnaker. The wisker pole may be a bit week to use and you wont be able to control the lift with it. Look at the size of the spinnaker pole and gear. You will be able to fly the sail with lighter gear but you would be just playing.

Doug&Ruth
Wind Lass
Tacoma Wa.

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Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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1768 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2002 : 18:30:07

Since we're on the subject of spinnakers, I was wondering ... what is the difference between a regular spinnaker and an asymmetrical spinnaker? Do you use the same sail, but rig it in a different way? ... Or is an asymmetrical spinnaker cut differently?

Thanks!

Buzz Maring, C-25 SK/SR #68, "Freya"

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Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2002 : 19:36:47

Its cut differently and Im not sure but I dont think you need a pole or am I thinking genaker.

Doug&Ruth
Wind Lass
Tacoma Wa.

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MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2002 : 04:20:54

I don't have one but from what I have gleaned is that an asymetrical, genniker (SP), cruising spinny, drifter etc, are all names for the same thing. Kind of like a cross between a racing spinnaker and a genoa. No pole is used and you gyb by letting the sail go infront of the forestay.

Matt/Brigitte Loeffler
E.C. Rider
Cat 25 86'
FK/SR _/)

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Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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USA
769 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2002 : 08:48:28

Hey Goodone,

If you can get a copy of "the Annapolis Book of Seamanship" by John Rousmaniere and/or a copy of his video "the Annapolis Book of Seamanship Volume Five Daysailers: Sailing and Racing" you'll do yourself a big favor. Both the book and the video have excellent information regarding spinnaker hoisting, trimming, jibing, and dousing. As far as your whisker pole is concerned, you'll need to rig a topping lift of some sort and a foreguy to hold the pole parallel to the water. Otherwise, the weight of the pole will pull down one corner or the puffs will lift up the poled out corner - both screw up the spinnaker's shape. Sheets/guys from the lower corners of the sail are lead aft nearly as far as your aft mooring cleats, then forward to the winches. Again, get the book and video, they're excellent.

For the other respondents with questions about the names of spinnakers et al.........

A spinnaker (by definition) is a symetrical sail that has both side lengths the same. An assymetrical spinnaker has one side that quite a bit longer than the other. The longer side is the luff and it's cringle is the tack corner of the sail. You secure this tack to the stem fitting or another fitting at the bow of your boat. Some folks use a single piece of 4' or 5' long line. Others, have a block shackled to the stem fitting an run an adjustable tack line from the sail, through the block, and back to the cockpit so that the tack can be adjusted up and down to help control sail shape. Both sheets are secured to the clew corner of the sail and are lead to the aft quarters like you do with symetrical spinnakers. The difference is that when the sail is trimmed, the lazy sheet will rest on the top of your bow pulpit and against the forestay. Jibing the assymetrical spinnaker requires that the loaded sheet is released as the boat heads downwind and the sail is allowed to "flag" out in front of the boat. As the boat's bow turns under the sail, the new loaded sheet is trimmed. BTW: practicing this maneuver with the mainsail down is a much easier learning procedure.

Many of the assymetrical spinnakers (especially the less expensive ones) are cut at about 165% or 170%. So, they're quite a bit smaller in area when compared to a racing triradial spinnaker that has been cut at about 180%. If you want a "full size" assymetrical spinnaker you may have to order it that way by telling the sail loft that you want a 180% sail. That way, your assymetrical chute will actually be larger than "racing" spinnakers.

Lastly: assymetrical spinnaker, cruising chute, genniker, all pretty much are similar sails. But, for most folks, a drifter is actually a regular jib sail that has been made out of spinnaker cloth (ripstop nylon) so that it will fill in even the lightest breezes. The drifter is hanked to the forestay just like a jib and the sheets lead aft to the lead blocks just like the jib. You can buy drifter jibs in whatever size you want (125%, 135%, 150%, even 165%). A 135% may be better in breezes less than 5 knots because it has less weight of cloth; while a 165% will be better for reaching in anything between 5 and 8 knots of breeze. And, if you have roller furling for your jib, you can actually set the drifter "flying" and not hank it to the forestay or put it on the furler. Use light weight sheets to help sail shape (mine are 3/16" staset). The drifter will usually sail great this way (after all, you should only be using the drifter in winds up to 7 or 8 knots.

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

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Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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1768 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2002 : 11:39:58

'Great info ... thanks Bill!

Buzz Maring, C-25 SK/SR #68, "Freya"

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Greg Jackson
1st Mate

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84 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2002 : 13:43:49

Bill has got it correct, but there is one new option to throw into the mix, the Code Zero.

Basically, there is a range from conventional spinnaker through to a conventional genoa, which amounts to how full the sail cut is. A very full cut spinnaker can only go downwind. An asymetrical with a full cut can do a beam reach, while an asymetrical with a flat cut can actually head up just a bit. A screacher (spinnaker + reacher) is about the same. A drifer is a very light full cut genoa. You probably cannot point quite as high with a drifer in light air as you can with a genoa in normal conditions, but it is definately an upwind sail.

The code zero is quite similar to a drifter, but it is normally stored on a think flexible furler and hung free flying, not hanked on. It was invented as a rule breaker for fractional rigged Whitbread boats. They could only fly jib sails on their headstay, but they could fly spinaker off the mast head, giving more sail area than a fractional rig. The code zero was pitched as a flat spinaker, but it was really only used where they wanted the largest possible genoa. Harken and others produced some nice light furlers, where you furl the sail and then lower it to the deck. The furled sail and furler will roll up into a bag.

Downwind, a full sail will be much more stable. With limited money and space I bought a flat cut asymetrical. Not very good straight downwind, but with a wider angles of sail than either a conventional chute or drifter.

GTJ

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Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2002 : 16:42:33

Okay, most of this I know....but have to mention that I built a spinnaker from a kit from Sailrite, years ago. Rigged the boat with downhauls, guys, etc. and spinnaker pole, but rarely sailed with the crew to fly it. So, I bought a chutescoop, tacked the sucker to an adjustable tack fitting I could raise and lower from the cockpit, and flew it as an assymetrical. Sure, it was not as good deaddown as if I used the pole, but it wasn't bad.

Recently came into a nearly new assymetrical chute that is smaller; probably a 165 or so.....silly me, I rig it with both sheets coming over the deck, not around the forestay. They ride over the genoa sheets when "racing". I gybe it like a big genny, inside the forestay. Somebody please tell me why I shouldn't do this, or what I'd gain by running the lazy sheet around the forestay and gybing the sail around the front of the boat. Is that going to eliminate the occasional "hang up" I get when the head of the spinnaker catches on the forestay? Thanks for your advice....

Gary B.

Encore! SK/SR # 685

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John Mason
Admiral

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687 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2002 : 16:51:21

Spinnaker halyards are usually above, or outboard of the forestay, because the spinnaker is jibed around in front of the forestay. If you used the jib halyard it might get hung up on the forestay.

John Mason - Ali Paroosa
1982 - FK/SR #3290

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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6855 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2002 : 08:36:54

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
We recently purchased a spinnaker but now are having trouble figuring out just how to fly it.I have a roller furler on....could I use my now unused mast mounted jib halyard to hoist it? What about the 2 guys....where do I run them and to what? And poles....can I use my telescopic whisker pole or do I need something else? And if I use a chutescoop.....how do I run lines for IT? Seems REALLY confusing....don't want the front of the boat looking like I own stock in New England Ropes....HELP!
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Yes, you could use the jib halyard in a pinch. Most c-25's have a clevis pin on the mast to attach a block for a spinaker. I understand though that some mastheads do not. In a pinch you can use the unused jib halyard. Just make sure it is out in front of the forestay when you start. And also, take the kite down on the same side that you hoist it to avoid wrap-ups.

You don't mention whether your spin is asymetrical or not. most of my jargon here is for a symetrical spinaker. If yours isn't a radial or tri-radial spinaker then all you really need to do is rig the spin like a big jib...that's another story.

Secondly, the sheets and or guy on the spinaker should be lead aft as far back as possible to a block.

Don't use the whisker pole unless you want to snap it. The force of a spinaker is much harder on the pole than a jib running downwind.

For the rest of the setup I copied a prior post of mine below, it originally came from this thread

http://www.catalina25-250.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1330

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Joshua,
This is the standard rigging for most boats racing with a symmetrical spinnaker. I have included a narrative of how everything is used too, so that you can try to mentally paint the picture as to how it all fits together. I wish I could get you pictures, but don't have any...

A symmetrical spinnaker requires the following gear:
Hardware:

Spinnaker Pole
Pole Topping Lift
Pole Down Haul (optional*)
Pole track car on mast
Turning blocks mounted on the rail as far aft as possible.
Two snap shackles (light weight)
Two cam cleat blocks, mounted on the rail at the widest beam (alternative method requires two blocks to be here, and utilizes a second set of guys)

Software:

Spinnaker
Spin Halyard
Two Spinnaker sheet/guys
Tweaker / Twing Lines
Alternative method, an extra set of sheets

how to

Just prior to hoist:

The Halyard is attached to the head and both sheets are attached to the clews. The sheets both run back through snatch blocks that are attached via tweaker lines to the cam block located on the rail at the area of widest beam. The pole side (guy) snatch block is always pulled all the way in and cleated, the sheet side tweaker line/snatch block combo is always let out. Sometimes the snatch block is detached. The lines both continue aft to the turning blocks, then forward to the winches (if needed, otherwise just held by the trimmer.)

At Hoist:

The pole should be pulled back so that it is 90 % to the wind and obviously attached to the mast and windward sheet., The spinnaker is hoisted off the bow (*see note below). The person with the spinnaker sheet should trim the sail quickly to get it up and out, then ease so that it fills.

The gybe:
…The Tweaker line is released on the guy side of the boat. (windward side) The pole is released and reattached on the other side of the boat. This can be done either end to end or dipped. During this time the sail is free flown. During the early trials with this, be sure not to steer beyond the center of the sail. Lastly, after the pole is made (attached) the tweaker line is brought in on what is now the windward side of the boat.

Take Down: In this method, the bowman releases the snap shackle on pole side (windward) of the boat after the jib has been hoisted. The Sheet trimmer needs to quickly gather the foot of the sail (over the lifeline). The bow person then releases the halyard and lets it down in accordance with how much is being taken in by the people in the cockpit. This happens behind the sail. If racing, it better happen quick or the helmsman’s shoe will need to be dislodged from your backside. The foredeck/bowman will then need to take the pole off the mast and get the boat ready to tack.

The alternative method of rigging is rather old-fashioned and was done prior to the invention of tweaker lines, it involves a second set of sheets tied to the clew and run through blocks on the jib tracks. The pole would be attached to this line as opposed to the sheet. The Leeward side of the boat would use the line running all the way aft while the guy would just be slacked so that there is no tension on it.
....
*note: The C-25 Is right in the middle of big boat/little boat spinnaker set and dousing styles and these can feasibly be done with either type of rigging. Smaller boats don't always use a downhaul and just rely on the guy. The Hoist can be done from the rail, the cabin or the bow. If you choose the cabin or rail, rationalize the rigging so that you don’t have fouled sheets if you wish to hoist from a different location other than what I am showing above. The cabin hoist for example, requires that the guy be long enough to go all the way around the forestay, outside the jib and attach to the spinnaker in the cabin. Just don't get it caught up in something else. The same for the Halyard. With these methods, snap shackles are not needed on the spinnaker and all lines can be tied to it and remain that way

I hope I haven't thoroughly confused you now
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

One last thought, even if it is a "racing kite" (symetrical) you can attache a piece of four foot line to the bow, run it outside the pulpit and hook it to one of the spinaker clews. attach the sheet to the other side, this will allow the spinaker to get out in front of the boat and give you a way to sail with it before you get all the rest of your rigging....

Duane Wolff
"The Flying Wasp"
C-25, #401 std,sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b1ce23b3127cce9b043565af3d0000004010" border=0>

Edited by - on

John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2002 : 12:59:15

Gary B.
I'm new to assymetrical spinnakers, but I think what you would gain by running the sheets in front of the forestay (provided you have a spinnaker halyard above the forestay and a tack pennant at or in front of the forestay) is you would have an easier time flying the sail out in front of the boat. Less chance of snagging the forestay. The farther downwind you point, the more the sail should "balloon" out in front of the boat, which means a looser luff.

John Mason - Ali Paroosa
1982 - FK/SR #3290

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