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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Do you swear "by" or swear "at" your Honda?

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oldsalt
Admiral

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USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 08/15/2002 : 22:09:40

I read a lot and don't post much, but I couldn't pass this thread by.

I bought my Catalina 25 new back in 1983 along with a Evinrude 9.9 electric start, Yachtwin.

Except for annual maintenance, and new water pump impellors every two years or so, I never had a lick of trouble with it. Always started easily and never stalled.

Two years ago I decided to replace it solely because the age of the thing lead me to believe that perhaps my luck would run out.

I replaced the Evinrude with a new leftover '96 Johnson Sailmaster 9.9 2 stroke and I couldn't be happier. Both 2 cycles have had more than enough thrust for all the conditions I have encountered, and I've seen a lot of stuff, since I've owned the boat for going on 19 years.

As far as they "green" issue goes, we're sailors anyway and burn a heck of a lot less fuel than powerboaters to begin with, in fact, we probably consume less fuel in a full season than the average stinkpotter uses in an hour. Since I'm a saltwater sailor, I'm fine with the 2 stroke.

Before I decided on the Johnson, I "looked under the hood" of all the 4 strokes and frankly, I didn't like what I saw there. Too damn many parts and things to go wrong. With my 2 cycle, all I need is some fuel, a spark, some turns, and I'm on my way. In my opinion, my outboard isn't only a convenience, I also consider it a major safety item. I want it to turn over every time, and not stall out on me when I need it.

The weight issue is a big one for me as well. I didn't want to deal with issues involved with the extra pounds of the 4 strokes.

Just my $.02

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/15/2002 : 23:14:03

I can't argue with you, Old Salt... I can't say whether I spent too much on our new Honda 8. Our boat came with a manual-start Honda 8 that was too short (thanks to the DPO), but started and ran more beautifully than any small outboard I'd ever been around. So I couldn't resist--I sold it for a nice price and bought an electric start extra-long Honda 8--for some serious money, as small outboards go. As stated earlier, we had a problem with the throttle damper--something the dealer had seen before and fixed. (Hint: Tighten it very gently.) Otherwise, when I push the button, it's like starting a Honda Civic--instantaneous, quiet, and smooth.

As for reliability, around our boat club, the various Johnsons, Evinrudes, Yamahas, and Mercuries have been towed in (or have failed to get out) as often as anything else. The bigger ones make me sick when they start up in a huge plume of smoke, screaming out of control until the excess fuel burns out of the cylinders. And the constant oil slick around the slips tells a story. I had a Yamaha 4 (2-stroke) on our previous boat, and it was OK, but as prone to failure due to bad fuel or impeller problems as any other outboard.

My Honda looks more complex under the hood than my Yamaha did--mostly because it's an electric start engine with an 12 amp alternator. The block is heavier because it carries a valve train. But from everything I've seen, heard, and read, the 4-strokes have the same problems as the 2-strokes: cooling (especially in salt water) and fuel (which seems to be more problematical from marinas than from gas stations). With our 2-stroke, I learned that running the gas out each weekend was pretty important--evaporation would leave just the oil, which would gum up the carb.

So, to the original question for this thread, I don't swear by my Honda (yet), and certainly don't swear at it (yet). Nor do I believe that the 4-stroke design is inherently less reliable than the 2-stroke. I've been around both for over half a century.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

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jellyfish
Navigator

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USA
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Response Posted - 08/16/2002 : 10:46:50

ditto Oldsalt! give me my little Johnson 2 banger!

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n/a
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Response Posted - 08/16/2002 : 13:18:32

Yeh Jelly fish, that's great for the other side of the world, but ya cain't do them 2 strokers here in the golden state ( california). The governor loves the 4 stroke and makes us citizens love them too. Whether we want to or not!

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Ray Seitz
Captain

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Response Posted - 08/16/2002 : 15:01:23

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Yeh Jelly fish, that's great for the other side of the world, but ya cain't do them 2 strokers here in the golden state ( california). The governor loves the 4 stroke and makes us citizens love them too. Whether we want to or not!

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

From some various things I have read, it may only be a matter of time before some of the East follows your Gov's lead<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

Ray Seitz C 250WB #628

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RichardG
Admiral

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990 Posts

Response Posted - 08/16/2002 : 16:48:14

Gary:

I assume you're referring only to Lake Tahoe? Are two-strokes banned elsewhere in CA?

I can't verify the accuracy of the report, but I read somewhere that new "small" two-strokes will not be available for sale anywhere in the U.S. after 2010. Can anyone verify the facts? (so those in the two-stroke camp can decide if they want to get a new one before a ban is put into place).

RichardG 81 C25 SR/FK "Sanity"

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n/a
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Response Posted - 08/16/2002 : 19:31:55

RichardG...Each air quality management district in California makes county by county decisions. For many lakes in Northern Cal the 2 strokes are banned for over 8 horse, ski doos are lake by lake being required to be 4 stroke only. You can still use any egg beater in San Francisco Bay, but it's only a matter of 2-3 years. Just so you understand how bad it is here, southern California air quality management dist. is considering banning gasoline lawnmowers ( electric only), and BBQ will not be able to be briquets or propane. ( the plan is electric only). Even Bakeries at present MUST have an active afterburn device mounted on the oven exhaust stack. The aqmd has determined that there is a chemical released by the bread baking process that is deemed toxic. inspectors currently go down stream from construction sites and remove manhole covers,,looking for any residue of drywall mud, paint, or any othe chem. Then they go back up the street armed with their proof, and fine the builder $2500.00 to $10,000 in one pop. Tobacco Smoking is banned in california inside any public building, including resturaunts, bars, recreational facilities like bowling alleys....every where. Doesn't bother me, I'm not a smoker, but you can be reported and arrested for doing so.

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oldsalt
Admiral

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578 Posts

Response Posted - 08/16/2002 : 22:30:46

Scary

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glstout
Deckhand

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Response Posted - 08/17/2002 : 13:55:31

Like "old salt" I had to get in on this topic. This is the 2nd season for my Honda 4 stroke 9.9xls electric start and it's been great except:

It was absolutely the most difficult to start of any OB I've ever had; I could hand crank and start my 12 hp Faryman diesel my former CD 28 easier (that's not really easy). I talked to the Honda dealer near Marblehead who I had to convince that the 9.9 had an automatic choke (I agree a bad idea). This gentleman was quite ignorant of his product and I decided he was never going to be of service in any reasonable way. Since the engine ran fine after it was once started I was convinced the problem was the auto choke and learned to remove the hood and hold a towel over air intake and it stated like a champ. When the 2001 season ended I brought our 250WK back to the Cincy area and took the little gem to the dealer on Kellog Ave where Mike pulled wires, ran a couple of tests, put it back together and it stated immediately. I ask them to keep it, let it get cold and then try it, they did, it did and it generally starts on the 1st or 2nd button push. It is my belief the problem was a bad wiring connection.

The 250, OB, and trailer were purchased in MI where we traded in our C27 and the dealer there tried to be helpful on phone but was a far piece away. The Marblehead OH dealer was a real pain even accepting the fact it was a new OB re: warranty, returning phone calls, etc. while the Cincy people were great. I wrote a letter to Honda and never received a reply. At this point I have had to resort to my towel choke once this summer but this is a bear of an OBengine and beats thru that Erie chop like a champ. It has had occasion to pop out of the water momentarily when chop exists and ssb (stupid stink boaters) see how much wake they can make.

All things considered I'd probably do it over but "old salt" is right about the time our OBs run and the simplicity and weight of a 2 stroke being definite advantages.

The other point is those California so called environmental regulations and regulators are beyond scary.

gls

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2002 : 09:52:40

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
The other point is those California so called environmental regulations and regulators are beyond scary.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Have you been to LA, where the sunshine is orange? The air in the whole valley is scary!

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

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Brooke Willson
Admiral

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983 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2002 : 16:44:47

I had to weigh in, too. . . reading these posts make me appreciate my 1985 Mariner/Yamaha 2 stroker more and more. I think I'm going to call the people at Bay Manufacturing and see if they have an XL extension so I can keep the Mariner running forever.

With respect to the orange sunshine, it's a shame the gutless politicians take their ire out on people like us who run the motor to get in and out of the dock, instead of banning those @#$%& Suburban Assault Vehicles with one person in each. OR, they continue to feed our automobile addiction by building wider and wider freeways, instead of charging an arm and a leg for driving in the name of subsidizing affordable and ubiquitous public transportation. How little we knew fifty years ago when Henry Wilson declared "what's good for General Motors is good for America" that the result would be cities, suburbs, shopping centers, and everything else designed around one person per car.

If I could own any car in the world, it would be a Catalina 25.

Brooke

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jellyfish
Navigator

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USA
171 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2002 : 14:56:09

and folks say Floridians are crazy! I thanks the Lord every morning when I get up and look out over the Gulf while having my morning coffee. I dont think there is a nicer spot in the USA!

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RichardG
Admiral

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990 Posts

Response Posted - 08/20/2002 : 18:14:48

"LA, where the sunshine is orange"

Actually, things aren't as bad as they used to be. My marina is in the center, past the bridge. And you can clearly see the mountains over 60 miles away!

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d626b3127cce9f26f78f78dc0000001410" border=0>

But clearly all is not well. Friends who grew up here tell stories of "smog days" during the 70's when they would close the schools -- except they didn't get to go sledding like those of us who grew up in northern climates on "snow days".

Theoretically, LA Harbor should have pretty good air given that the prevailing winds bring clean air directly off the Pacific. However, diesel pollution can be bad locally due to the incredible number of short-haul truckers carrying shipping containers out of the area. Lots of industrial pollution as well. And despite the "regulations" described in this post (which I believe aren't nearly as Draconian as has been described), harbor area residents just have to suck it up, given the low political leverage they carry.

I think small, confined fresh water lakes are negatively impacted to a much greater extent by two-stroke engines than large, unconfined lakes or oceans.

RichardG 81 C25 SR/FK "Sanity"

Edited by - RichardG on 08/20/2002 18:23:19

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n/a
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125 Posts

Response Posted - 08/20/2002 : 19:07:08

Richard, You're exactly right regarding 2-stroke pollution in contained bodies of water ( lakes). And it is also true that both L.A., San diego, and San francisco have clearer air than inland areas ( where the mountains tend to catch and hold the pollution. I work in the Chemical/ environmental industries, and those Draconian regulations are in fact true. I also spent 20 years in the paint and specialtie coatings industry. I attended a meeting of the South Coast Air quality management ( they reside over los Angeles, San diego, Imperial, Riverside, and San bernardino counties). The intention of that meeting was to formulate a plan which would require residents who bought house paint, to have serial numbers on each can. When you were completed painting, you would be required to return the empty can, so the state could record the exact amount that went on the wall, the amount that was cleaned out of the brush or sprayer, and any residue which would have to be disposed of in accordance with their additional rulings. If you bought 7 gallons, you'd better return with 7 cans, .....or else. The general public would rise up in rebellion if they really understood where air pollution and automotive smog laws were heading.

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2984 Posts

Response Posted - 08/22/2002 : 17:06:51

Remember that on the new Honda 8-9.9 that there is an idle exhaust port. (above water) I'm guessing this is necessary for the lower idle speeds of this motor. Dirt Dobbers, spiders or the like in this port might prove a problem. Check to see if it is clear.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/22/2002 : 21:18:25

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Remember that on the new Honda 8-9.9 that there is an idle exhaust port. (above water)... <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Arlyn: What are you talking about? On my 2002 Honda, I'm not aware of any exhaust exiting above the anticavitation plate, much less above the waterline that's at least 5" above it. I would expect a little more noise otherwise, but mine is almost inaudible at idle. Are you sayng it's coming out of the pisser?

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

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Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 08/23/2002 : 01:11:12

I have the basic shop manual for the 8 and 10 Hp Honda. Who wants a copy ???

Doug&Ruth
Wind Lass
Tacoma Wa.

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 08/23/2002 : 13:23:55

Dave, my 2001 Honda 8 has an idle exhaust port directly in the back of the motor. It is considerably above the water line. It is a small pipe with about a 3/8" hole. It is very quiet. The manual says to insure that water doesn't enter it. I keep a cover on it (an end of the roll cover for coax cable) when not in use.

I guess the reason for the idle exhaust port was that the back pressure to exhaust below the water line was too great at idle. Maybe they dropped this exhaust port.... I purchased the new design very shortly after it became available.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224

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