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EAbrams
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USA
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Initially Posted - 11/06/2007 :  12:10:47  Show Profile
[url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16408"]Unstepping the Mast[/url]

I finally unstepped my mast yesterday or should I say my mast fell and I caught it.

After tying off the jib halyard to the bow I unpinned the roller furler and forestay. I tied a line to the jib halyard and ran it thru a block now attached where the forestay once was. The jib halyard was tied off to a cleat (This might be one place I made an error) on the cockpit coaming. Ok, remove the front shrouds and wrap the line around a winch. The Admiral starts the mast aft and next thing I know it is on its way down. I'm holding the line tight but the mast is still coming. It's not falling but it's dropping pretty quick. So I catch it.

I look at the line in my hand. I look at the jib halyard still tied off on the cleat. What went wrong?

Did the halyard slip inside the mast?
Should I have used a cleat on the mast not the coaming?
I used brand new braided line. Did it stretch?


Maybe I should take Mr. Bristle's advice.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Dave Bristle</i>
<br />My technique was to check the "Unstep mast" box on the winter storage contract.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">




Ed & Michele
Spirit #5644
1987 Catalina 25 WK/SR
Peconic Bay, Long Island NY &
Oriental, NC

Edited by - EAbrams on 11/06/2007 12:16:09

stampeder
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Response Posted - 11/06/2007 :  12:56:16  Show Profile
You probably should have tied the jib halyard off at the base of the mast.

That is why I use a seperate line and don't involve the halyards.
I use a 100' foot line - attached to the forestay turnbuckle - then I undo the forestay toggle and it is all held firmly inplace.

I hope no-one got hurt.

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dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 11/06/2007 :  13:01:50  Show Profile
It sounds like you weren't using an A frame or similar device, just the jib halyard, which due to the angle as the mast starts going down, would result in someone yelling, "TIMBER!"

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Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 11/06/2007 :  13:25:00  Show Profile
Without more datait is hard to know. I suspect that you were not using a gin pole or A-frame. Without those the last part of the mast lowering will turn into a mast-falling because the angle of the halyard gets near horizontal and give no leverage. That happened to me and luckliy the mast landed in the transom "mast up" setup. Check out this site for a great description of using a gin pole for mast rasing and lowering.

[url="http://kobernus.com/hunter260/checklist1/checklist1.html"]Gin Pole[/url]

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 11/06/2007 :  13:26:41  Show Profile
I think what Don is saying is that as the angles of the mast and the halyard become closer to parallel, the "purchase" of the halyard to hold the mast from falling diminishes greatly (essentially to zero). Where they become parallel, there is no purchase whatsoever. A "gin pole" changes the geometry so the halyard maintains an angle, just as spreaders do for shrouds.

I'm certainly glad you or anyone else didn't get hurt--that mast is a bit of a load! I might have dived into the cockpit... In actuality, I just checked the box.

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stampeder
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Response Posted - 11/06/2007 :  13:47:00  Show Profile
Ed's link 'Unstepping the Mast' indicates that he has an A-Frame.

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tinob
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USA
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Response Posted - 11/06/2007 :  14:34:35  Show Profile
ED

Hope all survived the mast lowering saga. What all mentioned as necessary to a safe and successful mast lowering,"use of a gin pole or an A frame to maintain the proper angle of the line lowering the mast", is covered in several occasions in the archives here. Most recently there is such an A frame device detailed by Arlyn Stewart, with drawings, that makes this job relatively straight forward. Check it out, it's neat.

Val on the hard DAGNABIT, Patchogue, N.Y.

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ClamBeach
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Response Posted - 11/06/2007 :  19:39:45  Show Profile
One end of the line used for lowering has to be cleated to the base of the mast... (or somewhere on the mast anyway). The other end gets led around the pulpit and goes on the winch.

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EAbrams
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USA
130 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2007 :  19:59:25  Show Profile
Thanks for the replies.

I did build an A frame and used it sucessfully to step the mast this spring. However I've read so many other postings that stated an A frame was not necessary I figured I would try lowering the mast without one. Some of those postings stating tying a line to the jib halyard, which I did. I ran this line thru a block at the bow and wrapped it around a winch. I pulled the halyard all the way to the top of the mast and tied it off on a cleat. Everything was pulled tight. I released just enough line to start the mast down and stopped to make sure the shrouds were not getting tangled. It was then that the mast began to come down. The jib halyard was still securely cleated. I had the other line gripped tightly in my hand Yet the mast was falling slowly to the stern. It was almost surreal as I knew I had a firm grip on the line yet the mast just kept getting closer. It was like the line was stretching.

No one was hurt. Next year I going back to using my A frame.

Edit
And tying off the halyard to a cleat on the mast

Edited by - EAbrams on 11/06/2007 20:36:17
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stampeder
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Response Posted - 11/06/2007 :  20:47:28  Show Profile
Most of us feel as though we've been given the gift of knowledge when something goes wrong and no-one gets hurt. We feel especially lucky when it didn't end up costing $.

At a sailing club meeting last year, a new member announced that they bought a MacGregor. He was teased mercilessly...and at some point in the evening said, rather loudly: "what did I do wrong?" to which he recieved a chorus of "you bought a MacGregor" It was all very funny and recieved in good humour, as intended.

I hope the express route to mast lowering ends up as a good anecdote.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 11/06/2007 :  21:58:56  Show Profile
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by EAbrams</i>
[br...The jib halyard was still securely cleated. I had the other line gripped tightly in my hand Yet the mast was falling slowly to the stern. It was almost surreal as I knew I had a firm grip on the line yet the mast just kept getting closer. It was like the line was stretching...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I suspect it was doing exactly that. As the line and the mast approach being parallel, the tension increases greatly (due to decreased leverage) and a very small amount of stretch will allow the mast to keep lowering, decreasing the angle and increasing the tension further, thus increasing the stretch... and down she comes!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 11/06/2007 22:01:50
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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
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Response Posted - 11/06/2007 :  23:41:10  Show Profile
I find it hard o belive the line would stretch that much. I suspect the issue is having the bitter end of the jib halyard ied off at the coaming, allowing the mast to slide down the hayyard. As noted above, the free end of the halyard must be secured on the mast. Think of tying a line from the stern pulpit through the sheaves at the masthead and to the bow pulpit; that would obviously not provide any fore and aft stability. Securing the line anywhere but to the mast allows similar free movement.

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Brooke Willson
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Response Posted - 11/07/2007 :  06:09:03  Show Profile
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Dave5041</i>
<br />I find it hard o belive the line would stretch that much. I suspect the issue is having the bitter end of the jib halyard ied off at the coaming, allowing the mast to slide down the hayyard. As noted above, the free end of the halyard must be secured on the mast. Think of tying a line from the stern pulpit through the sheaves at the masthead and to the bow pulpit; that would obviously not provide any fore and aft stability. Securing the line anywhere but to the mast allows similar free movement.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Exactly. Next time, use your mainsheet block and tackle to control the raising/lowering process with some power. Also, without some form of a gin pole, you really have no leverage (it doesn't look like you had one) whatsoever. Been there, done that, and I'm glad I had two strong sons to help.

For what it's worth -- and you will get disagreement in the forum -- I find it much easier to lower the mast FORWARD, using the boom as a gin pole, secured by the topping lift or a halyard, and the mainsheet for purchase. There are diagrams in the Tech Tips about how to run control lines to keep the mast from falling to the side. I have a tall rig, the mast for which is much heavier than a standard, and I have raised and lowered the mast forward single-handedly (I recommend you have a helper, but it CAN be done by yourself). I've done it both ways, and I'll never drop it aft again. I don't need an A-frame dropping it forward; there's no interference from the cabin top; the boom stays attached. You just have to be careful once the mast is down and resting on the bow pulpit to sit on the bottom of the mast as you remove the tabernacle bolt: otherwise the mast will tip off the bow!

Brooke

Edited by - Brooke Willson on 11/07/2007 06:11:36
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EAbrams
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USA
130 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2007 :  06:17:48  Show Profile
I tend to agree with both of you (Dave and Dave5041) but the line did not appear to have moved from its' position at the top of the mast. In other words would not the mast move along the halyard as it came down. (Dave5041 statement). Yet I think it's strange that the line(braided) would stretch as much as it would need to stretch. (Dave's Bristle's statement)

(Of course I'm thinking, did I tie off the main halyard and not the jib halyard. DUH!) Naaaaw I'm not that dumb.

Edited by - EAbrams on 11/07/2007 06:23:42
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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 11/07/2007 :  08:41:37  Show Profile
As the mast and halyard become close to parallel, only a couple of inches of stretch (in 60'+ of line) will allow the mast to move some distance--simple geometry--which will reduce the angle between the two further, increasing the stretching forces... But re-reading the original desription, I think the halyard should've been cleated on the mast--not the coaming--especially if it wasn't running through a block at the mast base... However, that probably wouldn't have prevented the problem--a gin pole would still be needed. I'd probably lean toward Brooke's solution (lowering forward with the boom) if I couldn't use my solution...

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 11/07/2007 08:43:34
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stampeder
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Response Posted - 11/07/2007 :  13:44:45  Show Profile
I had used the A-frame 5 or 6 times before I lowered and raised the mast without the A-frame.
Goofy thing was, I thought I had the A-frame attached on that 7th time, but had forgotten, in my haste, to actually attach it. That was when the old lightbulb went off and I stopped hauling it around with me.
If I were to attempt to raise the mast by myself, I would definitely use the A-frame.
My admiral is very capable and knowledgable about our boat. She does as much as I do when it comes to mast raising/lowering. Although, as the more expendable member of the crew, I'm the one that stands under the mast, while she stands off to the side and handles the lines.

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Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 11/07/2007 :  19:38:18  Show Profile
I'm with Dave. I had my halyard tied off securely at the mast and it dropped fast once the halyard was almost parallel. Even a tiny stretch will make this happen because there is no leverage at that point. That is why the gin poles and A frames work, great leverage.

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EAbrams
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USA
130 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2007 :  07:57:25  Show Profile
All I can say is it sure did seem like the line was stretching.
However the mast was only a third of the way down when all of this happened. My wife had just pushed it over and I was holding the line while she was going to look at the shrouds. I looked up and ......

I wasn't scared. As a matter of fact I felt a little like "Spock" on Star Trek. "Hmmmm the mast is falling captain, Fascinating"

Edited by - EAbrams on 11/08/2007 08:02:15
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ilnadi
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Response Posted - 11/08/2007 :  08:05:15  Show Profile
Considering most of us do not have expensive low-stretch halyards, I have been using the furler/forestay (which better not stretch!).

1. If you loosen the backstay and aft lowers first and leave the fwd lowers tight when disconnecting the forestay, the mast is not going to go over.

2. Use two single blocks to get a 2:1 purchase on the furler. (the purchase is enough that the mast did not even come down with two wraps on the halyard winch, had to go to 1/2 wrap until the mast was over)

3. Move the boom to the front as a gin pole (shackle it to the front bail on the mast step on one end and the furler on the other)

4. Run lines from where the boom connects to the end of the furler to the chainplates for the upper shrouds to keep the gin pole from going to the side.

There is enough friction and purchase that you can lower with one hand and guide/catch the mast with the other if you want.

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EAbrams
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Response Posted - 11/08/2007 :  08:30:55  Show Profile
Thanks Ilnadi

I won't have to take it down as often after I move to Oriental in a few years. I'll be able to keep her in the water year round.

I tried using the furler with my A frame. It was a PITA lifting it up to attach to the top of the A frame. Your boom/ginpole idea wouldn't require lifting the furler over my head. Just goes to show ya, there is more than one way to skin a cat.

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Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 11/08/2007 :  12:37:53  Show Profile
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I wasn't scared. As a matter of fact I felt a little like "Spock" on Star Trek. "Hmmmm the mast is falling captain, Fascinating"
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Uh, next time a mast is falling towards you....be scared.

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stampeder
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Response Posted - 11/08/2007 :  13:47:54  Show Profile
Ed - were you using a mast up or mast raising aid? I would not attempt to raise or lower without one, with or without an A-Frame.



Isn't it great to get all this help after you've had a near disaster!?!?!

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EAbrams
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USA
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Response Posted - 11/08/2007 :  17:16:28  Show Profile
Yes, this forum is great.

I don't have a mast up, but I do rest the mast on a "2 x 4 thing-a-ma-jig". It came with the boat and the mast rests on it at the stern. Keeps the mast level with the bow pulpit during storage. It raises the mast up few feet but not much. This spring I had no problem raising the mast from this position. I used my A frame.

Ahhh to have deep pockets. A mast up is on my long list of "Boy I wish I had one of those".
A new Tohatsu outboard and motor mount, SS barbque, solar panels, bimini/boom tent, pressurized water, You guys know what I mean. "Sailing Big on a Small boat".

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 11/08/2007 :  20:01:20  Show Profile
B.O.A.T.

Break Out Another Thousand


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KBeazley
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Response Posted - 11/08/2007 :  20:06:53  Show Profile
Did any one holler 'TIMBER' glad no one was in the way and hurt it could have been painful experience more than one way!


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ilnadi
Captain

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Response Posted - 11/08/2007 :  21:52:15  Show Profile
we are in Oriental already, so I have taken the mast down only three times in 4 years. Hope you make it to oriental before the 4-lane "improves" it.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by EAbrams</i>
<br />Thanks Ilnadi

I won't have to take it down as often after I move to Oriental in a few years. I'll be able to keep her in the water year round.

I tried using the furler with my A frame. It was a PITA lifting it up to attach to the top of the A frame. Your boom/ginpole idea wouldn't require lifting the furler over my head. Just goes to show ya, there is more than one way to skin a cat.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

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